Thanksgiving in HK

Discussion of current events
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cassowary
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Re: Choose not to or unable to answer?

Post by cassowary » Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:48 pm

neverfail wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:53 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:49 pm
neverfail wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:36 pm


Since it is impossible to reason with an ideologue, I choose not to answer any of your above loaded questions. :)
Since you "chose" not to answer, let it be remembered that you did not refute the points I raised. My contention is that higher taxes slow down economic growth and cause unemployment.

From past experience, the subject will crop up again sometime in the future. You will claim that I keep flogging the "same old dead horse," as though the argument had been settled in your favor.
NO point in refuting those points as you will bring them back again regardless.

I never said that higher taxes cannot bring about higher unemployment; just that they do not always do so - contrary to your black-and-white view of the situation.
Actually, it is technically true that you never said that higher taxes cannot bring higher unemployment. Because you did not say anything at all. This is precisely what you said:
Since it is impossible to reason with an ideologue, I choose not to answer any of your above loaded questions.
I was using the Socrates' method of debating - by asking you common sense questions that eventually leads to you to not having any choice but to agree with me. So of course, you refuse to answer the questions.
Please, stop flogging the same old dead horse Cassowary. You do not seem to have published an original thought on this and related matters for years.
cassowary wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:49 pm
The same goes for the discussion on the minimum wage causing unemployment.
(CUT AND PASTE FROM ABOVE)
We also had minimum wages that were higher than ever and constantly raised to compensate beneficiaries for a rising cost of living. In those days our unemployment was almost consistently below 1% of the workforce and we needed to take in an average of 100,000 immigrants per year to fill unfilled job vacancies. Now with a globalized economy and slack policing on firms exploiting foreign workers allowed in via temporary visas by underpaying and overworking these we suffer an average unemployment rate of around 5%.
This is not armchair-hypothetical speculative stuff like a lot of your offerings but real life observation over a quarter of a century period (1945 to 1972). Indeed, I can see how protecting the wage levels of the most vulnerable sectors of our workforce with mandatory minimum wage rulings helped create additional employment by expanding the number of consumers with discretionary spending powers. The fact that this country has had structural unemployment since the OPEC oil price increases of the 1970's (which you seem to have had no direct experience with) has absolutely nothing to with our minimum wage and everything to do with structural changes to our economy (do you even comprehend what that means? ) forced upon this country in the aftermath.
You are quoting your own opinion, while I quote the opinion of respected economist Milton Friedman who won the Noble Prize. I also gave you a link to an article saying that the majority of economists believe that the minimum wage raises the unemployment rate.

This is not hypothetical speculative stuff.

Where did you get the number saying that Australian unemployment was 1% during the period 1945 to 1972? Can you provide a link to support your argument?
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: Choose not to or unable to answer?

Post by neverfail » Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:18 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:48 pm

You are quoting your own opinion,....


My OBSERVATION.
cassowary wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:48 pm
......while I quote the opinion of respected economist Milton Friedman...
Presumably as a prop of borrowed authority to bolster the opinion of one who has precious little authority in his own right to opine on the topic.

cassowary wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:48 pm
..... who won the Noble Prize.
So did Paul Krugman. Yet in his case you claim that the Nobel committee should take his prize back because his take on things does not agree with yours.

You can't have it both ways Cassowary!
cassowary wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:48 pm
I also gave you a link to an article saying that the majority of economists believe that the minimum wage raises the unemployment rate.
They are all wrong since none of them (it seems) bothered to study my country's economic history. If they devoted more attention to obscure lands like mine instead of wrapping themselves up in abstract theories (often in the pay of corporate business no doubt) they would probably make better economists having had some of their cherished myths dispelled.

cassowary wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:48 pm
Where did you get the number saying that Australian unemployment was 1% during the period 1945 to 1972?
:lol: By living through the period and paying attention to the news throughout. The governments of the day made a point of reminding us of our country's low unemployment good fortune no doubt to embellish their own re-election prospects - which still did not make it anything other than true.

I do not see why I should bother to provide you with such a link. If you do not believe me you probably would not believe thw content of such a link regardless of how authoritative the source.

neverfail
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Re: Thanksgiving in HK

Post by neverfail » Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:37 pm

Hey Sertorio!

What was it that Benjamin Franklin is alleged to have said?

:idea: :lol: That “Capitalism is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch."

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Sertorio
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Re: Thanksgiving in HK

Post by Sertorio » Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:16 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:37 pm
Hey Sertorio!

What was it that Benjamin Franklin is alleged to have said?

:idea: :lol: That “Capitalism is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch."
...and the lamb is prevented from voting on being found guilty of fake news... :lol:

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cassowary
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Re: Thanksgiving in HK

Post by cassowary » Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:38 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:37 pm
Hey Sertorio!

What was it that Benjamin Franklin is alleged to have said?

:idea: :lol: That “Capitalism is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch."
Nope.

Image

That's what Franklin supposedly said.

Whether he actually said it or not, I find it true.

There are two voters with below average income for every voter with above average income. So the more productive, able citizens are always outvoted. The result is high taxes on the minority to fund a ruinous welfare state that benefits the majority.

Politicians get elected by pandering to the majority. They overpromise and taxes are not enough. So they borrow. That's how democracies go broke - like Greece.

Image

See? The median income (divides graph into two equal parts) is always lower than the mean (average income).

So those with below average income always outnumber those with above average income. That's where Franklin's "two wolves and a lamb" comes from.

I prefer to put it differently from what franklin allegedly said.

"Democracy is two bums outvoting one brain. So you end with with a government run by bums." ... Cassowary
The Imp :D

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cassowary
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Re: Choose not to or unable to answer?

Post by cassowary » Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:38 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:18 am
[
cassowary wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:48 pm
......while I quote the opinion of respected economist Milton Friedman...
Presumably as a prop of borrowed authority to bolster the opinion of one who has precious little authority in his own right to opine on the topic.
So you don't agree with Milton Friedman. That's OK to disagree. But you have to give a reason why you think he is wrong. Understand the facts and logic he gave and try to refute him.

cassowary wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:48 pm
..... who won the Noble Prize.
So did Paul Krugman. Yet in his case you claim that the Nobel committee should take his prize back because his take on things does not agree with yours.
Not true. Its not because he did not agree with me. It was because his prediction of "endless recession" because Trump got elected, proved false.
cassowary wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:48 pm
I also gave you a link to an article saying that the majority of economists believe that the minimum wage raises the unemployment rate.
They are all wrong since none of them (it seems) bothered to study my country's economic history. If they devoted more attention to obscure lands like mine instead of wrapping themselves up in abstract theories (often in the pay of corporate business no doubt) they would probably make better economists having had some of their cherished myths dispelled.
You always hide behind your country because most people don't read much about Australia. Is your country that different? Is your country immune to the laws of economics?
cassowary wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:48 pm
Where did you get the number saying that Australian unemployment was 1% during the period 1945 to 1972?
:lol: By living through the period and paying attention to the news throughout. The governments of the day made a point of reminding us of our country's low unemployment good fortune no doubt to embellish their own re-election prospects - which still did not make it anything other than true.

I do not see why I should bother to provide you with such a link. If you do not believe me you probably would not believe thw content of such a link regardless of how authoritative the source.
Could it be because you made up your statistic?
The Imp :D

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cassowary
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Tax and growth

Post by cassowary » Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:53 pm

How balancing tax policy and growth remains a challenge
Given the low global economic growth of recent years, governments around the world have been looking hard at the effects of taxes.
Almost all taxes are considered economically distortive. However, some impede growth more than others.
In 2008, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) issued a report ranking major groups of taxes in terms of their negative impact on long-term economic growth. The report concluded that corporate/capital income taxes have the most damaging potential effect, followed by personal income taxes, consumption taxes such as value-added taxes (VAT), then recurrent real property taxes.
So the worst taxes to levy are corporate tax and capital income (gains?) tax. The least harmful on economic growth is property tax, according to the experts at the OECD.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: Thanksgiving in HK

Post by neverfail » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:41 am

cassowary wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:38 pm
Image
That's what Franklin supposedly said.
Oh dearie me, so that was what he said?

:lol: All fool me!

"Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote?"

What a preposterous analogy?

While we humans are equipped with flexible hands and clever fingers that can grip defensive (and, alas offensive) weapons; lambs are endowed only with hooves and are therefore patently incapable of arming themselves.

Could you imagine a lamb floundering around attempting to pick up a Kalashnikov? :lol: :lol: :lol:

I just hope and pray that Benjy Franklin never said anything of the sort. If he did then it suggests that at least one of the founding fathers of the US republic was fit to be certified clinically insane.

(Either that or he had a very warped sense of humour). :(

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Milo
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Re: Thanksgiving in HK

Post by Milo » Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:13 am

neverfail wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:41 am
cassowary wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:38 pm
Image
That's what Franklin supposedly said.
Oh dearie me, so that was what he said?

:lol: All fool me!

"Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote?"

What a preposterous analogy?

While we humans are equipped with flexible hands and clever fingers that can grip defensive (and, alas offensive) weapons; lambs are endowed only with hooves and are therefore patently incapable of arming themselves.

Could you imagine a lamb floundering around attempting to pick up a Kalashnikov? :lol: :lol: :lol:

I just hope and pray that Benjy Franklin never said anything of the sort. If he did then it suggests that at least one of the founding fathers of the US republic was fit to be certified clinically insane.

(Either that or he had a very warped sense of humour). :(
Franklin never said that.
The quote ascribed to Franklin says, “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” However, The Daily Caller found no instance of it in Franklin’s writings, nor does the statement appear in the National Archives‘ online database.

“I couldn’t readily find the quote in Franklin’s papers,” Thomas Kidd, a history professor at Baylor University, told the Caller in an email.

According to etymologist Barry Popik, the first half of the expression can be found in print as far back as 1987.

The closest Franklin comes to expressing this sentiment is where he writes in a 1773 letter, “There is Truth in the Old Saying, That if you make yourself a Sheep, the Wolves will eat you.”
https://checkyourfact.com/2019/05/29/fa ... -hamilton/

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cassowary
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Re: Thanksgiving in HK

Post by cassowary » Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:18 am

neverfail wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:41 am
cassowary wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:38 pm
Image
That's what Franklin supposedly said.
Oh dearie me, so that was what he said?
Allegedly. There are some doubts that Franklin actually said that. Anyway, it’s true because there are about two below average income voters for every one above average income voter. The latter tend to be the more diligent, frugal and smarter person.

But he is always outvoted by the less able and diligent. Hence he is the lamb who becomes lunch for the two wolves. This means his hard earned money is taxed away by Politicians to buy the votes of the majority through the welfare state.

I prefer to rephrase it this way:

Democracy is two bums and a brain voting on who to have for lunch. That’s why bums are running the government.
The Imp :D

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