Thanksgiving in HK

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cassowary
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Thanksgiving in HK

Post by cassowary » Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:15 pm



Image

A sea of American flags, Sertorio.

As you can see, not all the world shares your world view that the US is the devil incarnate. To the people of HK, they see America as the best hope for their freedom. Like Singaporeans, the Hongkees have a benign view of the US.

Say, a thought just occurred to me. I notice that it is the losers of the world, such as Socialists and Muslims, that have a malign view of the US.

Another thought also struck me. This could be a pivotal moment. If HK protesters succeed in achieving democracy, this day, which is also the US Thanksgiving Day, could be declared a national holiday. You have another Thanksgiving tradition in HK. Of course, if the protests spreads to China and democracy is established there too, it could also be China's Thanksgiving Day. It seems far fetched. But one can hope, yes?

If that happens, guess who will get the credit in Chinese text books? Donald Trump.

........................................................................................................................................

Regarding Newt Gingrich's stupid essay, I find it insulting for him to say that China must have this totalitarian system just because the emperors of China were also totalitarian. It implies that the Chinese people cannot and do not want to change. Tell that to the people of HK.

If the American people can reject King George, the Chinese people can reject the Yellow Emperors of old and its modern incarnation, Xi Jinping.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: Thanksgiving in HK

Post by neverfail » Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:45 pm

cassowary wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:15 pm

Regarding Newt Gingrich's stupid essay, I find it insulting for him to say that China must have this totalitarian system just because the emperors of China were also totalitarian. It implies that the Chinese people cannot and do not want to change. Tell that to the people of HK.

If the American people can reject King George, the Chinese people can reject the Yellow Emperors of old and its modern incarnation, Xi Jinping.
:o :o :o

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh boy! That essay by David Goldman (not by Newt) outlining Newt Gingrich's take on China must have really got up your nose Cassowary. For you to have gone to the trouble of concocting this alternative discussion thread in an attempt to scoff it. Well, that would not be an unusual reaction from one who lives in a state of denial over something.

You apparently have not the slightest insight how the roots of western democracy go back all of the way to Jerusalem and ancient Athens (whose legacy in both cases China missed out on entirely). It did not begin with the American struggle for independence - historically a latter-day event which I agree has since had a cathartic, transformative effect on what was already there in other parts of Western civilization bringing democratic rule to bloom abroad. The point is that the spread of Western democracy was facilitated by the fact that the foundations for it elsewhere were already in place.

In the case of China the foundations are not there at all. Do you believe that the people of China can just shrug off around 3,500 years of conditioning by successive warlord dynasties and waves of conquerors? Layer upon layer of imposed order? People develop ingrained habits that ensure that the familiar status quo will persist indefinitely.
...........................................................................................................

P.S. China is the elephant while Hong Kong is the flea on its rump. The Hong Kong protests may temporarily annoy and embarrass the rulers in Beijing but will not alter the trajectory of Chinese history.

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cassowary
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Re: Thanksgiving in HK

Post by cassowary » Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:00 pm

neverfail wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:45 pm
cassowary wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:15 pm

Regarding Newt Gingrich's stupid essay, I find it insulting for him to say that China must have this totalitarian system just because the emperors of China were also totalitarian. It implies that the Chinese people cannot and do not want to change. Tell that to the people of HK.

If the American people can reject King George, the Chinese people can reject the Yellow Emperors of old and its modern incarnation, Xi Jinping.
:o :o :o

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh boy! That essay by David Goldman (not by Newt) outlining Newt Gingrich's take on China must have really got up your nose Cassowary. For you to have gone to the trouble of concocting this alternative discussion thread in an attempt to scoff it. Well, that would not be an unusual reaction from one who lives in a state of denial over something.

You apparently have not the slightest insight how the roots of western democracy go back all of the way to Jerusalem and ancient Athens (whose legacy in both cases China missed out on entirely). It did not begin with the American struggle for independence - historically a latter-day event which I agree has since had a cathartic, transformative effect on what was already there in other parts of Western civilization bringing democratic rule to bloom abroad. The point is that the spread of Western democracy was facilitated by the fact that the foundations for it elsewhere were already in place.

In the case of China the foundations are not there at all. Do you believe that the people of China can just shrug off around 3,500 years of conditioning by successive warlord dynasties and waves of conquerors? Layer upon layer of imposed order? People develop ingrained habits that ensure that the familiar status quo will persist indefinitely.
...........................................................................................................

P.S. China is the elephant while Hong Kong is the flea on its rump. The Hong Kong protests may temporarily annoy and embarrass the rulers in Beijing but will not alter the trajectory of Chinese history.
Don’t be silly Neverfail . People and culture can change. The Mandate of Heaven is not much different from the Divine Right of Kings. Taiwan and Singapore are majority Chinese. But they are democracies. South Korea and Japan are not Chinese but they were strongly influenced by Chinese culture for thousands of years. They too are democracies. Lastly, the HK people are Chinese and they want it.

Now, we must hope democracy spreads to the mainland. It will be good for the Chinese people and the world.

By the way, this thread was started to tell people like Sertorio that not all people are like him who sees the US as Satan incarnate. It was not to debunk Newt or Goldman.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: China's historical copycats have turned into copycats of The West.

Post by neverfail » Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:24 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:00 pm
neverfail wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:45 pm


P.S. China is the elephant while Hong Kong is the flea on its rump. The Hong Kong protests may temporarily annoy and embarrass the rulers in Beijing but will not alter the trajectory of Chinese history.
Don’t be silly Neverfail . People and culture can change. The Mandate of Heaven is not much different from the Divine Right of Kings. Taiwan and Singapore are majority Chinese. But they are democracies. South Korea and Japan are not Chinese but they were strongly influenced by Chinese culture for thousands of years. They too are democracies. Lastly, the HK people are Chinese and they want it.

Now, we must hope democracy spreads to the mainland. It will be good for the Chinese people and the world.

By the way, this thread was started to tell people like Sertorio that not all people are like him who sees the US as Satan incarnate. It was not to debunk Newt or Goldman.
None of your abovementioned "fringe" countries within China's traditional orbit were the lands where China's sometimes triumphant but often massively tragic historical experience has been played out. That makes a big difference. Comparisons to mainland China are spurious and misleading.

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Re: China's historical copycats have turned into copycats of The West.

Post by cassowary » Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:24 am

neverfail wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:24 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:00 pm
neverfail wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:45 pm


P.S. China is the elephant while Hong Kong is the flea on its rump. The Hong Kong protests may temporarily annoy and embarrass the rulers in Beijing but will not alter the trajectory of Chinese history.
Don’t be silly Neverfail . People and culture can change. The Mandate of Heaven is not much different from the Divine Right of Kings. Taiwan and Singapore are majority Chinese. But they are democracies. South Korea and Japan are not Chinese but they were strongly influenced by Chinese culture for thousands of years. They too are democracies. Lastly, the HK people are Chinese and they want it.

Now, we must hope democracy spreads to the mainland. It will be good for the Chinese people and the world.

By the way, this thread was started to tell people like Sertorio that not all people are like him who sees the US as Satan incarnate. It was not to debunk Newt or Goldman.
None of your abovementioned "fringe" countries within China's traditional orbit were the lands where China's sometimes triumphant but often massively tragic historical experience has been played out. That makes a big difference. Comparisons to mainland China are spurious and misleading.
I don’t think so. These lands were heavily influenced by Chinese culture.
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Doc
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Re: Thanksgiving in HK

Post by Doc » Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:54 am

China's problem, where family is the first priority, is and always has been corruption. It is indeed culture. But cultures can have radical changes. The cultural revolution for example pitted children against their families

It can go the other way as well

“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Sertorio
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Re: Thanksgiving in HK

Post by Sertorio » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:27 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:15 pm

A sea of American flags, Sertorio.
If I were the Hong Kong people, the last flag I would hoist would be the American one. It's the surest way to get China to smash the democracy movement in Hong Kong. Any other flag, the Monaco or the Gibraltar ones, for instance, would be a lot wiser...Hong Kong people may be good at making money but they do not seem to be capable of thinking things through... A bit like yourself, Cass...

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Re: Thanksgiving in HK

Post by Doc » Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:47 am

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:27 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:15 pm

A sea of American flags, Sertorio.
If I were the Hong Kong people, the last flag I would hoist would be the American one. It's the surest way to get China to smash the democracy movement in Hong Kong. Any other flag, the Monaco or the Gibraltar ones, for instance, would be a lot wiser...Hong Kong people may be good at making money but they do not seem to be capable of thinking things through... A bit like yourself, Cass...
What they got from it (This is at least the second time they have flown American flags) is a US commitment to end Hong Kong's special financial status with the US should the CCP take Hong Kong by force. Which would cause great damage to China's economy in the long run. Plus if the US did that other countries would follow.

I was watching a chinese woman give a talk at the Brookings institute last night, that was recorded before the election last Sunday.

She was making the claim that the protest movement was dividing Hong Kong. That the protesters didn't have a leader and they should stop protesting declare a victory then negotiate a solution. That families were not speaking to each other because of the protests. Which strangely was the CC party line at that time. She nuanced it quite a bit but that was her bottom line. The CCP leadership was indeed shocked by the election result. 85% against the CCP. But it wasn't shock that their candidates lost but the margin they lost by.

Their explanation to the people on the mainland is that the protesters prevented many people from voting even though at 71% this was the highest turning for an election in Hong Kong's history.

These were local district elections but next year there is a vote scheduled to elect the Hong Kong government. If 85% of the vote goes against the CCP in that election it will lose control of the Hong Kong government for the first time since 1997.

If that vote doe snot go through as scheduled or it is in some way rigged or annulled then the CCP would have clearly violated its agreement with the UK then other countries, that matter, will never trust them again.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Re: Thanksgiving in HK

Post by Sertorio » Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:25 pm

Doc wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:47 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:27 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:15 pm

A sea of American flags, Sertorio.
If I were the Hong Kong people, the last flag I would hoist would be the American one. It's the surest way to get China to smash the democracy movement in Hong Kong. Any other flag, the Monaco or the Gibraltar ones, for instance, would be a lot wiser...Hong Kong people may be good at making money but they do not seem to be capable of thinking things through... A bit like yourself, Cass...
What they got from it (This is at least the second time they have flown American flags) is a US commitment to end Hong Kong's special financial status with the US should the CCP take Hong Kong by force. Which would cause great damage to China's economy in the long run. Plus if the US did that other countries would follow.
Hong Kong may be useful to China, but it isn't vital. China has Shanghai, which fulfills very much the same functions of Hong Kong.

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Re: no reason for thanksgiving in HK

Post by neverfail » Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:33 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:25 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:47 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:27 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:15 pm

A sea of American flags, Sertorio.
If I were the Hong Kong people, the last flag I would hoist would be the American one. It's the surest way to get China to smash the democracy movement in Hong Kong. Any other flag, the Monaco or the Gibraltar ones, for instance, would be a lot wiser...Hong Kong people may be good at making money but they do not seem to be capable of thinking things through... A bit like yourself, Cass...
What they got from it (This is at least the second time they have flown American flags) is a US commitment to end Hong Kong's special financial status with the US should the CCP take Hong Kong by force. Which would cause great damage to China's economy in the long run. Plus if the US did that other countries would follow.
Hong Kong may be useful to China, but it isn't vital. China has Shanghai, which fulfills very much the same functions of Hong Kong.
Good point. The sanctions are directed against Hong Kong, not mainland China. Beijing can afford to let this troublesome enclave wither in the vine.

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