How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

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Sertorio
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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by Sertorio » Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:19 am

neverfail wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:01 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:29 am
lzzrdgrrl wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:08 pm
Let's try a little closer to home. When a major component of the state infrastructure goes........ "oh, shit.... looks like really we messed up", there isn't much standing in the way of..... civil unrest??......

https://www.yahoo.com/news/punishing-wi ... 47838.html

Not a good place to see bigger and longer.....'>........
Karl Marx would have loved living now in the US... It could have added volumes to his Das Kapital... :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
You are so right there Sertorio ... and if his tract were then to go on to inspire and justify such travesties as the Stalinist USSR; Mao's Great Leap Forward; the killing fields of Cambodia and Fidel Castro's island prison then he would likewise go to the grave with much on his conscience.
To me, Karl Marx is important because of his analysis of capitalism, which I find brilliant. His suggestions about how to solve capitalism's problems are just garbage. The amazing thing is that Marx, having lived in the 19th century, could not know what was going to happen in our days, but he was pretty good at forecasting some of the worst developments of capitalism. But for the rest I prefer Bakunin to Marx:
The dispute between Bakunin and Karl Marx highlighted the differences between anarchism and Marxism. He strongly rejected Marx's concept of the "dictatorship of the proletariat", in which the new state would be unopposed and would, theoretically, represent the workers. He held that the state should be immediately abolished because all forms of government eventually lead to oppression. He also vehemently opposed vanguardism, in which a political elite of revolutionaries guide the workers. Bakunin insisted that revolutions must be led by the people directly while any "enlightened elite" must only exert influence by remaining "invisible...not imposed on anyone...[and] deprived of all official rights and significance".

They [the Marxists] maintain that only a dictatorship—their dictatorship, of course—can create the will of the people, while our answer to this is: No dictatorship can have any other aim but that of self-perpetuation, and it can beget only slavery in the people tolerating it; freedom can be created only by freedom, that is, by a universal rebellion on the part of the people and free organization of the toiling masses from the bottom up.

— Mikhail Bakunin, Statism and Anarchism

[W]e are convinced that liberty without socialism is privilege and injustice; and that socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality.

— Mikhail Bakunin, Federalism, Socialism, Anti-Theologism, 1867

"If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself"

Jim the Moron
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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by Jim the Moron » Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:39 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:19 am
neverfail wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:01 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:29 am
lzzrdgrrl wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:08 pm
Let's try a little closer to home. When a major component of the state infrastructure goes........ "oh, shit.... looks like really we messed up", there isn't much standing in the way of..... civil unrest??......

https://www.yahoo.com/news/punishing-wi ... 47838.html

Not a good place to see bigger and longer.....'>........
Karl Marx would have loved living now in the US... It could have added volumes to his Das Kapital... :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
You are so right there Sertorio ... and if his tract were then to go on to inspire and justify such travesties as the Stalinist USSR; Mao's Great Leap Forward; the killing fields of Cambodia and Fidel Castro's island prison then he would likewise go to the grave with much on his conscience.
To me, Karl Marx is important because of his analysis of capitalism, which I find brilliant. His suggestions about how to solve capitalism's problems are just garbage. The amazing thing is that Marx, having lived in the 19th century, could not know what was going to happen in our days, but he was pretty good at forecasting some of the worst developments of capitalism. But for the rest I prefer Bakunin to Marx:
The dispute between Bakunin and Karl Marx highlighted the differences between anarchism and Marxism. He strongly rejected Marx's concept of the "dictatorship of the proletariat", in which the new state would be unopposed and would, theoretically, represent the workers. He held that the state should be immediately abolished because all forms of government eventually lead to oppression. He also vehemently opposed vanguardism, in which a political elite of revolutionaries guide the workers. Bakunin insisted that revolutions must be led by the people directly while any "enlightened elite" must only exert influence by remaining "invisible...not imposed on anyone...[and] deprived of all official rights and significance".

They [the Marxists] maintain that only a dictatorship—their dictatorship, of course—can create the will of the people, while our answer to this is: No dictatorship can have any other aim but that of self-perpetuation, and it can beget only slavery in the people tolerating it; freedom can be created only by freedom, that is, by a universal rebellion on the part of the people and free organization of the toiling masses from the bottom up.

— Mikhail Bakunin, Statism and Anarchism

[W]e are convinced that liberty without socialism is privilege and injustice; and that socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality.

— Mikhail Bakunin, Federalism, Socialism, Anti-Theologism, 1867

"If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself"
Unlike most folks on this forum, I don't read much of political philosophy, and so avoid commenting on it. But, Sertorio, your brief quote from Mikhail Bakunin (of whom I know nothing about) is really worthwhile.

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Doc
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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by Doc » Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:17 am

IF a pop up asks you to "allow" Notifications click "deny"

IF you want to know what is going on with the Mexican drug cartels including WRT Guzman here is their channel(enter at your own risk):

https://translate.googleusercontent.com ... IB21KTOvXA
Popular tickets

List of executions, interrogations and shootings videos
Horrifying video where hitmen from Mayo Zambada took the heart of one subject and another beheaded ...
Five corpses of Sicarios of the CJNG inside a dam with everything and trocas in CD Hidalgo; Michoacan
Police say "We turned our faces, we are not cowards and we are not using women or children as shields" ...
Bloodthirsty video, hit men from La Familia Michoacana stab and skin the members of the CJNG alive
“I know Ovidio Guzmán”: Julio César Chávez supports the release of the son of 'Chapo' Guzmán
The Military arrived screaming, I was scared, they just wanted to disperse to protect us from the CDS Hitmen


https://translate.googleusercontent.com ... g78jM6rE1Q

Narcoblocks, hostages and chaos, The method with which hitmen managed to rescue Ovid Guzmán son of "El Chapo" in Culiacán, Sinaloa

https://translate.googleusercontent.com ... Sf6b2uC8mQ

Hitmen sent two videos to military commanders of Culiacán, in a video you could see several soldiers raised; in the other to an item executed
Andrés Manuel López Obrador said this morning that releasing Joaquín's son “El Chapo” Guzmán was a decision of the Security Cabinet he supports. “It was decided to protect people's lives and I agreed with that. It is not about massacres. That is over. The capture of a criminal cannot be worth more than the lives of people, ”he said.
It took Colombia over a decade to figure out that there can be no peace with Narco Terrorists. That it is a war where the winning strategy is "Take no prisoners". NArco imprisoned in country always escape justice. When they are threatened with extradition to the US they will kill anyone to avoid it and fight to the death. None of Guzman's sons are going to be taken alive.

After all these are people that resent Islamic Terrorists and so feel they have to out do their violence.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

neverfail
Posts: 4213
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Location: Singapore

Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by neverfail » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:33 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:39 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:19 am


To me, Karl Marx is important because of his analysis of capitalism, which I find brilliant. His suggestions about how to solve capitalism's problems are just garbage. The amazing thing is that Marx, having lived in the 19th century, could not know what was going to happen in our days, but he was pretty good at forecasting some of the worst developments of capitalism. But for the rest I prefer Bakunin to Marx:
The dispute between Bakunin and Karl Marx highlighted the differences between anarchism and Marxism. He strongly rejected Marx's concept of the "dictatorship of the proletariat", in which the new state would be unopposed and would, theoretically, represent the workers. He held that the state should be immediately abolished because all forms of government eventually lead to oppression. He also vehemently opposed vanguardism, in which a political elite of revolutionaries guide the workers. Bakunin insisted that revolutions must be led by the people directly while any "enlightened elite" must only exert influence by remaining "invisible...not imposed on anyone...[and] deprived of all official rights and significance".

They [the Marxists] maintain that only a dictatorship—their dictatorship, of course—can create the will of the people, while our answer to this is: No dictatorship can have any other aim but that of self-perpetuation, and it can beget only slavery in the people tolerating it; freedom can be created only by freedom, that is, by a universal rebellion on the part of the people and free organization of the toiling masses from the bottom up.

— Mikhail Bakunin, Statism and Anarchism

[W]e are convinced that liberty without socialism is privilege and injustice; and that socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality.

— Mikhail Bakunin, Federalism, Socialism, Anti-Theologism, 1867

"If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself"
Unlike most folks on this forum, I don't read much of political philosophy, and so avoid commenting on it. But, Sertorio, your brief quote from Mikhail Bakunin (of whom I know nothing about) is really worthwhile.
I agree with Jim on that Sertorio. Bakunin as quoted by you above comes across as lucid, logical and to the point. Yet I cannot be an anarchist as I still see peaceful anarchy as an unattainable goal.

neverfail
Posts: 4213
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am
Location: Singapore

Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by neverfail » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:41 pm

Doc wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:17 am
IF a pop up asks you to "allow" Notifications click "deny"

IF you want to know what is going on with the Mexican drug cartels including WRT Guzman here is their channel(enter at your own risk):

https://translate.googleusercontent.com ... IB21KTOvXA
Popular tickets

List of executions, interrogations and shootings videos
Horrifying video where hitmen from Mayo Zambada took the heart of one subject and another beheaded ...
Five corpses of Sicarios of the CJNG inside a dam with everything and trocas in CD Hidalgo; Michoacan
Police say "We turned our faces, we are not cowards and we are not using women or children as shields" ...
Bloodthirsty video, hit men from La Familia Michoacana stab and skin the members of the CJNG alive
“I know Ovidio Guzmán”: Julio César Chávez supports the release of the son of 'Chapo' Guzmán
The Military arrived screaming, I was scared, they just wanted to disperse to protect us from the CDS Hitmen


https://translate.googleusercontent.com ... g78jM6rE1Q

Narcoblocks, hostages and chaos, The method with which hitmen managed to rescue Ovid Guzmán son of "El Chapo" in Culiacán, Sinaloa

https://translate.googleusercontent.com ... Sf6b2uC8mQ

Hitmen sent two videos to military commanders of Culiacán, in a video you could see several soldiers raised; in the other to an item executed
Andrés Manuel López Obrador said this morning that releasing Joaquín's son “El Chapo” Guzmán was a decision of the Security Cabinet he supports. “It was decided to protect people's lives and I agreed with that. It is not about massacres. That is over. The capture of a criminal cannot be worth more than the lives of people, ”he said.
It took Colombia over a decade to figure out that there can be no peace with Narco Terrorists. That it is a war where the winning strategy is "Take no prisoners". NArco imprisoned in country always escape justice. When they are threatened with extradition to the US they will kill anyone to avoid it and fight to the death. None of Guzman's sons are going to be taken alive.

After all these are people that resent Islamic Terrorists and so feel they have to out do their violence.
Thanks for getting the discussion back on track Doc - after that inane digression from Mexico on to California. With those supporting links added it looks like the narco gangs have the entire country in their pocket.

As bad as Columbia during the heyday of the Medellin cartel?

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Doc
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:09 pm
Location: Cradle To Grave

Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by Doc » Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:25 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:41 pm
Doc wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:17 am
IF a pop up asks you to "allow" Notifications click "deny"

IF you want to know what is going on with the Mexican drug cartels including WRT Guzman here is their channel(enter at your own risk):

https://translate.googleusercontent.com ... IB21KTOvXA
Popular tickets

List of executions, interrogations and shootings videos
Horrifying video where hitmen from Mayo Zambada took the heart of one subject and another beheaded ...
Five corpses of Sicarios of the CJNG inside a dam with everything and trocas in CD Hidalgo; Michoacan
Police say "We turned our faces, we are not cowards and we are not using women or children as shields" ...
Bloodthirsty video, hit men from La Familia Michoacana stab and skin the members of the CJNG alive
“I know Ovidio Guzmán”: Julio César Chávez supports the release of the son of 'Chapo' Guzmán
The Military arrived screaming, I was scared, they just wanted to disperse to protect us from the CDS Hitmen


https://translate.googleusercontent.com ... g78jM6rE1Q

Narcoblocks, hostages and chaos, The method with which hitmen managed to rescue Ovid Guzmán son of "El Chapo" in Culiacán, Sinaloa

https://translate.googleusercontent.com ... Sf6b2uC8mQ

Hitmen sent two videos to military commanders of Culiacán, in a video you could see several soldiers raised; in the other to an item executed
Andrés Manuel López Obrador said this morning that releasing Joaquín's son “El Chapo” Guzmán was a decision of the Security Cabinet he supports. “It was decided to protect people's lives and I agreed with that. It is not about massacres. That is over. The capture of a criminal cannot be worth more than the lives of people, ”he said.
It took Colombia over a decade to figure out that there can be no peace with Narco Terrorists. That it is a war where the winning strategy is "Take no prisoners". NArco imprisoned in country always escape justice. When they are threatened with extradition to the US they will kill anyone to avoid it and fight to the death. None of Guzman's sons are going to be taken alive.

After all these are people that resent Islamic Terrorists and so feel they have to out do their violence.
Thanks for getting the discussion back on track Doc - after that inane digression from Mexico on to California. With those supporting links added it looks like the narco gangs have the entire country in their pocket.

As bad as Columbia during the heyday of the Medellin cartel?
Mexico used to be as bad as Colombia. Then it got dangerous.

On that site if you look around the Narco terrorists post snuff videos. Just to give you an idea, there was one I saw where a man was dismembered alive. Their prefered instrument seems to be axes for dismembering people. I really don't care to look at them again.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

neverfail
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Location: Singapore

Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by neverfail » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:53 pm

Doc wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:25 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:41 pm

Thanks for getting the discussion back on track Doc - after that inane digression from Mexico on to California. With those supporting links added it looks like the narco gangs have the entire country in their pocket.

As bad as Columbia during the heyday of the Medellin cartel?
Mexico used to be as bad as Colombia. Then it got dangerous.

On that site if you look around the Narco terrorists post snuff videos. Just to give you an idea, there was one I saw where a man was dismembered alive. Their prefered instrument seems to be axes for dismembering people. I really don't care to look at them again.
Excuse me if I give it a miss Doc and thanks for the warning. Terrorists' videos like that read too much like a pornography of death.

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cassowary
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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by cassowary » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:14 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:09 am
https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/10/artic ... led-state/

Last week marked a climatic defeat of AMLO’s hapless “security strategy”: A botched operation to capture a son of the notorious drug lord Joaquín El Chapo Guzmán, who was recently condemned to life in prison in the US, unexpectedly encountered a mighty underworld force that surfaced to defend Ovidio Guzmán López. Junior’s defenders for a full day held hostage a city of almost a million inhabitants, forcing the Mexican armed forces to retreat and release the prisoner.
:roll: Doc, I seem to recall a post you made in a past discussion in which you revealed that while in Mexico you actually witnessed a cat being chased by huge rats. For some reason the above news of an army of gangsters forcing their national army into retreat reminded me of that. :(

What a country!
How did the Mexicans become a failed state? It's likely to do with their culture, Neverfail. Another bunch of bums.

It also did not help having the US as a neighbor. The US is the world's largest heroin market. So this sparked the drug gangs in Mexico. Of course, nothing of that sort happened in Canada. They have a more robust culture.
The Imp :D

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Doc
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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by Doc » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:36 pm

cassowary wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:14 am
neverfail wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:09 am
https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/10/artic ... led-state/

Last week marked a climatic defeat of AMLO’s hapless “security strategy”: A botched operation to capture a son of the notorious drug lord Joaquín El Chapo Guzmán, who was recently condemned to life in prison in the US, unexpectedly encountered a mighty underworld force that surfaced to defend Ovidio Guzmán López. Junior’s defenders for a full day held hostage a city of almost a million inhabitants, forcing the Mexican armed forces to retreat and release the prisoner.
:roll: Doc, I seem to recall a post you made in a past discussion in which you revealed that while in Mexico you actually witnessed a cat being chased by huge rats. For some reason the above news of an army of gangsters forcing their national army into retreat reminded me of that. :(

What a country!
How did the Mexicans become a failed state? It's likely to do with their culture, Neverfail. Another bunch of bums.

It also did not help having the US as a neighbor. The US is the world's largest heroin market. So this sparked the drug gangs in Mexico. Of course, nothing of that sort happened in Canada. They have a more robust culture.
Mexico is corrupt like pretty much all of Latin America. With the added feature that the natives were pretty brutal before the Spanish came along and then the pretty brutalized after the Spanish came. 90% reduction in the native population in central America in the first 100 years after the Spanish.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

neverfail
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Location: Singapore

Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by neverfail » Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:17 pm

cassowary wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:14 am
neverfail wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:09 am
https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/10/artic ... led-state/

Last week marked a climatic defeat of AMLO’s hapless “security strategy”: A botched operation to capture a son of the notorious drug lord Joaquín El Chapo Guzmán, who was recently condemned to life in prison in the US, unexpectedly encountered a mighty underworld force that surfaced to defend Ovidio Guzmán López. Junior’s defenders for a full day held hostage a city of almost a million inhabitants, forcing the Mexican armed forces to retreat and release the prisoner.
:roll: Doc, I seem to recall a post you made in a past discussion in which you revealed that while in Mexico you actually witnessed a cat being chased by huge rats. For some reason the above news of an army of gangsters forcing their national army into retreat reminded me of that. :(

What a country!
How did the Mexicans become a failed state? It's likely to do with their culture, Neverfail. Another bunch of bums.
You got that right Cass. The only thing I disagree about is the use of your derogatory definition "bums". But I know that is just your inner imp making its presence known

Amazing how when we two agree on something it is like as if we are of one mind. When we disagree we are usually vehement about it. :lol: Almost like as if we are marriage partners :D .
cassowary wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:14 am
It also did not help having the US as a neighbor. The US is the world's largest heroin market. So this sparked the drug gangs in Mexico. Of course, nothing of that sort happened in Canada. They have a more robust culture.
Right again! Just as the PRC being the World's biggest importer of iron ore has "sparked" our multi-national mining corporations into high level profitability. As for Canada well, unlike Mexico they are in earnest about monitoring and controlling the flow of people and goods from their side of the border with well staffed, efficiently operating customs and immigration posts.

(You may recall here my earlier observation of how during a day trip when crossing of the US-Mexico border in 1981 there were no Mexican officials on duty to stamp our passports - so I along with thousands of other gringo :) day trippers got into Mexico without the Mexican government having any record of our presence and whereabouts. By contrast I ventured into Canada a fortnight later where I was confronted by a very grumpy young female immigration officer - that lass must have been on the cusp of having her next period ;) - who only barely condescended to grant me the few days' of visitor's visa that I had requested: and I was/am the citizen of a kindred Commonwealth of Nations dominion. :roll: What an undeserved humiliation! :evil: )

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