How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

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cassowary
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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by cassowary » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:15 pm

neverfail wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:35 pm
I was hoping that your earlier post was merely a tongue-in cheek sort of jibe just to get me going. But your subsequent persistence on the theme leads me to the impression that you must be serious after all. Very well Cass, we will take it up from there:
cassowary wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:40 pm

There was zero acknowledgement on your part that individual effort is needed for prosperity and success.
Zero acknowledgement? I did not (and still do not) see the need to as you have emphasized that over and over to the point of absurdity. My (from your perspective, undue) emphasis of the social (collective or corporate) side of things represents an attempt by me (apparently futile) to balance things up. That individual effort is needed for individual fulfillment and happiness I take as a given it goes without saying! (lets not speak of "prosperity and success, which I get the impression that you equate with the accursed American dream of a life spent - squandered in many cases - in the acquisition of money and property.
cassowary wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:40 pm
Your emphasis was entirely on social injustice, a theme favorite of Socialists.
Well so what! Does that mean that all who are concerned about social justice are necessarily socialists?

https://www.socialjustice.catholic.org.au/

As you can see there are others apart from socialists who have this dimension of concern.

cassowary wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:40 pm
This is, as I said, opposed to traditional Protestant view that a person's ruin is entirely due to his sins - sloth, extravagance, lust etc. My view is that the truth lies somewhere in between the two.
Which raises the question "which protestants are you talking about"? Protestants were/are not of one standard make or model but a diverse bunch. There was not one single protestant reformation taking place in the 16th century but at least three major "streams": four if you count King Henry's founding of the Church of England (which I am inclined to regard as a bit bogus as King Henry's succession was not based upon any theological disagreement with Rome).

How do you account for the fact that the Scandinavian countries, all of Lutheran religious heritage, were able to develop into the cradle-to-grave welfare states that they have been now for decades? Do you think it is because of "socialism"? No, it is apparently a latter-day outgrowth of some time honored Scandinavian traditions in which Lutheran Christianity was important in preserving and enhancing. Suffice to say that (like the Catholic Church) the Lutheran Church seems to have retained a sense that the individual thrives best when part of the community
- so that makes community important.

(God, allegedly, created Eve in the garden of Eden because it is not good for man to live alone.)

It is for this reason that the Catholic Church emphasizes communal worship and receipt of the holy sacraments as representing the path to heaven.

I think that when you say "protestant" above you really mean Calvinist. Well, I may point out here that as a non-Calvinist christian I am not obliged to accept (recalling how God once allowed Old Testament Job to be put to the test) that - exclusively of all else - a person's ruin is entirely due to his sins.

Least of all do I accept the late Margaret Thatcher's absurd observation that "there is no such thing as society". :lol:
What do you mean by social justice, Neverfail?

This word has been bandied about by many people who never bothered to define it. Based on the words of the US politicians and their supporters in the media, I get the impression that they mean, by social justice, that wealth must be equally shared.

My idea of social justice is different. To me, it means that each of us should be given equal rights and equal opportunity to succeed in whatever career or business we choose. So obviously, a country that failed to provide education to the children because of corruption and stealing public funds does not provide social justice to its people.

In the feudal era, the children of medieval peasants don't have equal opportunity to rise in their society. Power was in the hands of a small group of feudal lords who decided how much to tax them. In such a set-up, I can agree that there is little social justice in such a society. But the conditions of mature democracies do not have such impediments. Most have good education systems and society gives each person a vote, unlike in medieval, feudal society. Power is thus diffused and laws that oppressed the majority are no more. So I don't think there is much social injustice nowadays in a mature democracy.

One's success or failure is mostly your own doing.

That's my idea of social justice. What is your idea of social injustice that makes you think it is such a problem in an advanced democracy like in a mature such as in your own country?
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by neverfail » Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:28 am

cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:15 pm

What do you mean by social justice, Neverfail?

This word has been bandied about by many people who never bothered to define it. Based on the words of the US politicians and their supporters in the media, I get the impression that they mean, by social justice, that wealth must be equally shared.

My idea of social justice is different. To me, it means that each of us should be given equal rights and equal opportunity to succeed in whatever career or business we choose. So obviously, a country that failed to provide education to the children because of corruption and stealing public funds does not provide social justice to its people.

In the feudal era, the children of medieval peasants don't have equal opportunity to rise in their society. Power was in the hands of a small group of feudal lords who decided how much to tax them. In such a set-up, I can agree that there is little social justice in such a society. But the conditions of mature democracies do not have such impediments. Most have good education systems and society gives each person a vote, unlike in medieval, feudal society. Power is thus diffused and laws that oppressed the majority are no more. So I don't think there is much social injustice nowadays in a mature democracy.

One's success or failure is mostly your own doing.

That's my idea of social justice. What is your idea of social injustice that makes you think it is such a problem in an advanced democracy like in a mature such as in your own country?
We both seem to be on the same page re. your ideal of social justice Cass. Unfortunately, social injustice is like sin. It is highly adaptable and constantly in a state of evolution as its working environment changes. Nothing in this transitory world of ours is fixed and permanent.

Even in a "mature democracy" like the one I am blessed to live in the weak and defenseless still get trampled on.
You would be surprised! :twisted: :cry:

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