Mugabe RIP

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neverfail
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Re: Mugabe RIP

Post by neverfail » Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:57 am

cassowary wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:04 pm

Thanks for that interesting information, Neverfail. Your writings constantly delight and educate me in things I don't know.

From what you said, it looks like the different tribal groups were always fighting each other long before the Europeans came. They continued fighting even after they left. I think even if each tribe lived in separate countries, there still will be fighting but this time across international borders.
Sad but true Cass (and by the way, thanks for the compliment.).

As another example: you may or may not recall the Biafra War in Nigeria 1967-72 which came about after the slaughter of members of the Idbo ethnic group throughout Muslim northern Nigeria. The (Christian-pagan) Idbo homeland in south eastern Nigeria succeeded and were then let down by the Yoruba - the other demographically large Christian-pagan ethnic group of the Nigeria coast-lands who apparently preferred to ingratiate itself to the Federal government (where the Islamic north had seized control of the agenda) than stand in solidarity with its fellow Christians further to the east. On the eve of that conflict a radio broadcast by northern Islamic nationalists boasted that the conflict was 'the resumption of our historic drive to the ocean'

A drive to the ocean that apparently the British had interrupted, put on hold, with their (1898 - 1962) period of colonial governance.

The British should never have granted independence to Nigeria in a single "lump" but should first have arguably split the Islamic north away from the Christian south and granted independence to the two separately. That way the south could have had a shot at subsequently making progress while the north could continue to wallow in its preferred forms of backwardness. ;)

cassowary wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:04 pm
They have to take lessons from the Swiss. They have 4 different ethnic groups - French, German, Italian and Romansh. But they get along. In olden days, they had Cantons, which had a lot of autonomy. Maybe this will work for Africa. Create Cantons and a weak Federal Government.
The African states have taken a tentative step in that direction with their Organisation for African Unity. But thus far the OAU has shown itself to have been something of a toothless tiger.

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cassowary
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Mugabe was a Socialist who ruined Zimbabwe

Post by cassowary » Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:36 pm

https://thefederalist.com/2019/09/17/di ... socialist/

First con people that they don’t need to work for their money by promising them Other People’s Money. In the case of Zimbabwe, the victims were the white Farmers. This will of course ruin the economy. Then, when people are hungry, make yourself a dictator. The people won’t be able to resist. After that, use your power to enrich yourself and your cronies.

It happened so many times. This con has been used around the world. Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren and other Democrats are Mugabe wannabes. With growing flirtation with Socialism in America, I fear for America’s future. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: Mugabe was a Socialist who ruined Zimbabwe

Post by neverfail » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:28 am

cassowary wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:36 pm
https://thefederalist.com/2019/09/17/di ... socialist/

First con people that they don’t need to work for their money by promising them Other People’s Money. In the case of Zimbabwe, the victims were the white Farmers. This will of course ruin the economy. Then, when people are hungry, make yourself a dictator. The people won’t be able to resist. After that, use your power to enrich yourself and your cronies.

It happened so many times. This con has been used around the world. Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren and other Democrats are Mugabe wannabes. With growing flirtation with Socialism in America, I fear for America’s future. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
I would not worry about the United States Cass. The way their internal power structure is set up makes it impossible for any one person to centralize power in his own hands. If the likes of Bernie Sanders or Liz Warren were to be elected president, either would likely spend his term in office hitting his head against a brick wall.

Jim the Moron
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Re: Mugabe was a Socialist who ruined Zimbabwe

Post by Jim the Moron » Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:39 am

neverfail wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:28 am
cassowary wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:36 pm
https://thefederalist.com/2019/09/17/di ... socialist/

First con people that they don’t need to work for their money by promising them Other People’s Money. In the case of Zimbabwe, the victims were the white Farmers. This will of course ruin the economy. Then, when people are hungry, make yourself a dictator. The people won’t be able to resist. After that, use your power to enrich yourself and your cronies.

It happened so many times. This con has been used around the world. Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren and other Democrats are Mugabe wannabes. With growing flirtation with Socialism in America, I fear for America’s future. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
I would not worry about the United States Cass. The way their internal power structure is set up makes it impossible for any one person to centralize power in his own hands. If the likes of Bernie Sanders or Liz Warren were to be elected president, either would likely spend his term in office hitting his head against a brick wall.
Actually, as it happens, it has been apparent from their utterances that Liz and Bernie have been butting their heads against brick walls for quite some time. Hope they seek medical treatment soon for their resultant brain damage.

neverfail
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Re: Mugabe was a Socialist who ruined Zimbabwe

Post by neverfail » Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:45 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:39 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:28 am
cassowary wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:36 pm
https://thefederalist.com/2019/09/17/di ... socialist/

First con people that they don’t need to work for their money by promising them Other People’s Money. In the case of Zimbabwe, the victims were the white Farmers. This will of course ruin the economy. Then, when people are hungry, make yourself a dictator. The people won’t be able to resist. After that, use your power to enrich yourself and your cronies.

It happened so many times. This con has been used around the world. Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren and other Democrats are Mugabe wannabes. With growing flirtation with Socialism in America, I fear for America’s future. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
I would not worry about the United States Cass. The way their internal power structure is set up makes it impossible for any one person to centralize power in his own hands. If the likes of Bernie Sanders or Liz Warren were to be elected president, either would likely spend his term in office hitting his head against a brick wall.
Actually, as it happens, it has been apparent from their utterances that Liz and Bernie have been butting their heads against brick walls for quite some time. Hope they seek medical treatment soon for their resultant brain damage.
:lol: I'll pay that one Jim.

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cassowary
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Re: Mugabe was a Socialist who ruined Zimbabwe

Post by cassowary » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:28 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:39 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:28 am
cassowary wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:36 pm
https://thefederalist.com/2019/09/17/di ... socialist/

First con people that they don’t need to work for their money by promising them Other People’s Money. In the case of Zimbabwe, the victims were the white Farmers. This will of course ruin the economy. Then, when people are hungry, make yourself a dictator. The people won’t be able to resist. After that, use your power to enrich yourself and your cronies.

It happened so many times. This con has been used around the world. Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren and other Democrats are Mugabe wannabes. With growing flirtation with Socialism in America, I fear for America’s future. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
I would not worry about the United States Cass. The way their internal power structure is set up makes it impossible for any one person to centralize power in his own hands. If the likes of Bernie Sanders or Liz Warren were to be elected president, either would likely spend his term in office hitting his head against a brick wall.
Actually, as it happens, it has been apparent from their utterances that Liz and Bernie have been butting their heads against brick walls for quite some time. Hope they seek medical treatment soon for their resultant brain damage.
Hahaha. :lol:

But seriously, even if a dictator does mot emerge from in America, the country will go broke someday. The systemic flaw makes it impossible to stop government overspending. The leftist politicians keep promising more expenditure even now when the government debt is 100% or more of GDP. Medicare for all, cancellation of student debt etc.

Very tough to fight all this. Isn't this the case of promising you Other People's Money? In this case, they are promising you the money of their kids. It will take generations to clear government debt.
The Imp :D

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cassowary
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Mugabe's net worth. Where did he hide his money?

Post by cassowary » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:56 pm

Robert Mugabe Accumulated Riches as Zimbabwe Crumbled. Here's What We Know About His Money
In 2011, Wikileaks published a cable written a decade earlier by the U.S. embassy in Harare that stated, “The full extent of Mugabe’s assets are unknown, but are rumored to exceed $1 billion in value, the majority of which are likely invested outside Zimbabwe.”
So Mugabe was worth at least $1 billion in 2001. After 10 years in power, his net worth would have been more. Maybe $3 billion? Where did he hide his money?

Well, like any prudent dictator, he must have spread it around the world's secretive tax havens - Switzerland, the Channel Islands, one of the Caribbean Islands and Singapore. Since he spent most of his time, after he got kicked out, in Singapore and also died here, my guess is that a sizable chunk of his money is in the hands of our bankers.

I hope that our bankers served him well. This will encourage dictators of other Socialist countries to put their money here and make Singapore richer. Hello Maduro. Are you paying attention? Sertorio, money has a way of flowing from poor Socialist countries to rich Capitalist ones.

The phrase "Poor Socialist country" contains a redundancy. If you are Socialist, you will automatically be poor. Sertorio, I hope you understand this by now. If you truly care for the poor, you should advocate Capitalism. Otherwise, you will be creating more dictators like Mugabe and making countries like us richer.
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Doc
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Re: Mugabe RIP

Post by Doc » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:01 am

cassowary wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:04 pm
neverfail wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:10 pm
Doc wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:47 am
How many Tribal areas were being fought over in Singapore? In Malaysian? What's more the British did not divide up Malaysia into arbitrary political districts with competing groups.

Not that simple doc.

Africans are not, never have been, one single people. In the case of Zimbabwe, formerly Rhodesia and before that Southern Rhodesia: the native occupants were two distinct peoples who spoke unrelated languages. These were the Ndebele and the Wa-Shona (the Shona nation?).

The Ndebele whose domain covered the semi-arid west of Zimbabwe, were a nation of tough warriors. Their language is a regional dialect of Zulu - whose prowess as a warrior people were, still are , legendary. Living in the better watered, more fertile east were the much more docile Shona: subsistence farmers and cattle grazers they endured a tributary relationship with the much more predatory Ndebele in days of yore.

In 1890, into the picture erupted Cecil Rhodes: Premier of British Cape Colony; an enormously wealthy businessman and Empire builder par excellence. Rhodes had good reason to want to annex the "space" now occupied by the states of Zimbabwe, Zambia and Malawi to the British Empire. In 1885 Imperial Germany had abruptly entered the overseas Empire building game by suddenly annexing present day Namibia and Tanzania (minus Zanzibar) and made no secret of their ambition to extend those two until they met up as a German super-colony that straddled southern Africa and which they referred to as Mittel Afrika.

To block the German move Rhodes used his own private fortune to fund a colonizing expedition into the region for the strategic purpose of stopping the Germans from doing that. Among the power-politics of Europe at the time Germany was like the new kid on the block whose presence caused anxiety and uncertainty for those seasoned old imperialists Britain and France. London was reluctant to offend Imperial Germany (much of the English aristocracy had Germanic roots - including Queen Victoria herself). Rhodes decided to act without permission from London and present the annexation to the British government as a fait accompli.

(Yes doc. The British Empire was nothing like as centrally controlled as it may have looked. Colonial politicians sometimes can and did manipulate the home government with ploys like that. In 1885 for instance the British colony of Queensland annexed the south coast of New Guinea island as a buffer against a newly acquired German colony of the north coast).

Rhodes with his private army of a few hundred were able to vanquish Ndebele power with the help of a pair of prototype maxim guns borrowed from the British army's own invention shop. But while the Ndebele suffered the military defeat it was largely from the Shona that land was confiscated in order to provide farmland for his settlers.

At this point you may better understand why, in 1983 Mugabe, now empowered as political strongman president, sent a notorious small army of fellow Shona terrorists, trained by North Korean specialists, into Matabeleland (as the Ndebele domain is known) on a campaign of murder and terror in order to cow and subjugate the support base of Joshua Nkomo; Robert Mugabe's ethnic Ndebele political rival and nemesis. There was always bad blood between the two ethnic groups and the Mugabe-Nkomo rivalry brought that to a head.

You might also better understand the confiscation of the white farmland. Mugabe was a Shona and it was from the Shona that the land was originally taken.

All over Africa there is the same pattern of the carve-up of Africa between competing European powers brought together rival ethnic groups with a long prehistory of enmity between them together into the same unitary state. The outcome was bound to be a tragic internal power politics.

Africa was always politically fragmented but the era of European colonialism added an additional layer of complication to the picture that post-colonial Africa has had the misfortune to inherit.
Thanks for that interesting information, Neverfail. Your writings constantly delight and educate me in things I don't know.

From what you said, it looks like the different tribal groups were always fighting each other long before the Europeans came. They continued fighting even after they left. I think even if each tribe lived in separate countries, there still will be fighting but this time across international borders.

They have to take lessons from the Swiss. They have 4 different ethnic groups - French, German, Italian and Romansh. But they get along. In olden days, they had Cantons, which had a lot of autonomy. Maybe this will work for Africa. Create Cantons and a weak Federal Government.
The difference is before and after colonization is that colonial boundaries were drawn up in a manner that left at least two different tribes in each colony. SO much as you put it here:

https://www.davosman.org/viewtopic.php?p=25617#p25617

Internal competition for food and resources makes ruling over a populace so much easier
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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cassowary
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Re: Mugabe RIP

Post by cassowary » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:03 pm

Doc wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:01 am

The difference is before and after colonization is that colonial boundaries were drawn up in a manner that left at least two different tribes in each colony. SO much as you put it here:

https://www.davosman.org/viewtopic.php?p=25617#p25617

Internal competition for food and resources makes ruling over a populace so much easier
Well, I agree with you. But my point is that the British gave us different ethnic groups that are more different than tribal groups. Yet we get along. So why can't the African tribes get along? So don't blame something that happened so long ago and make the Africans perpetual victims. Don't have low expectations for them. If others can get along, so can they.

In other words, tell them that its their fault. Tell them that if the Swiss, the Singaporeans and the Malaysian can get along in a multi racial society so can they. Don't keep saying, "Its all our fault for giving you lousy borders. Africans are not to blame." They will never progress if they keep thinking like that.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: Mugabe RIP

Post by neverfail » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:53 pm

Doc wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:01 am

The difference is before and after colonization is that colonial boundaries were drawn up in a manner that left at least two different tribes in each colony. SO much as you put it here:

https://www.davosman.org/viewtopic.php?p=25617#p25617

Internal competition for food and resources makes ruling over a populace so much easier
They (the colonizers) drew up the boundaries for their own convenience all right but I do not believe that it was for the purpose of divide and rule their newly acquired African subjects. European man was so far ahead of the Africans in armaments design (along with the other gentle arts of civilization :) ) that there would have been no need to.

The "convenience" lay more with the relationship of each with other European powers. Like Cecil Rhodes leading a colonizing expedition into Rhodesia (and adjacent parts of central Africa) to block the Germans off from forming a large colony whose borders would have threatened the British position in South Africa (and his own fortune from the Kimberley diamond mines).

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