Why Bernie Sanders is wrong about Sweden

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cassowary
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Why Bernie Sanders is wrong about Sweden

Post by cassowary » Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:31 am

The Swedes are not Socialists
Sweden was one of the world’s fastest-growing economies for nearly a century. But by the 1960s, the country began to take its wealth-creating prowess for granted. I tell Mr. Norberg about New York Mayor Bill de Blasio ’s assertion: “There’s plenty of money in this world, it’s just in the wrong hands.” In 1960s Sweden, Mr. Norberg replies, “that’s almost verbatim what they said back then: ‘Now we’re this rich. Shouldn’t we just distribute it, and give it to the people and the places we like?’ ” Such thinking overtook the country’s dominant center-left Social Democratic Party.

“We thought we could do anything, and we had all of those other preconditions: the work ethic, some sort of social pressure, which meant that people were doing the right things, and they wouldn’t want to live on the dole,” Mr. Norberg says. “And then for 20 years, from 1960 to 1980, we doubled the size of the government spending as a percentage of GDP. That’s the aberration in Swedish history.” The Swedish welfare state first was a safety net for the needy. Over time the political class moved to “socialize the lives of the middle classes as well.” The plan: “Increase their taxes, and their benefits, and then they will buy into this system.”

The consequences were predictable. “It resulted in less work, people preferring to stay at home and paint the house rather than hiring someone to do it, general lack of getting the kind of education that matters. It led to entrepreneurs leaving Sweden.” Private-sector employment declined from the 1970s to the ’90s, while disposable-income and economic growth was relatively slow. Some of the country’s best companies and brightest minds fled an onerous inheritance tax.
The Democraps are in love with an illusion. Sweden is not what they think it is.
The Imp :D

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Doc
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Re: Why Bernie Sanders is wrong about Sweden

Post by Doc » Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:40 am

cassowary wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:31 am
The Swedes are not Socialists
Sweden was one of the world’s fastest-growing economies for nearly a century. But by the 1960s, the country began to take its wealth-creating prowess for granted. I tell Mr. Norberg about New York Mayor Bill de Blasio ’s assertion: “There’s plenty of money in this world, it’s just in the wrong hands.” In 1960s Sweden, Mr. Norberg replies, “that’s almost verbatim what they said back then: ‘Now we’re this rich. Shouldn’t we just distribute it, and give it to the people and the places we like?’ ” Such thinking overtook the country’s dominant center-left Social Democratic Party.

“We thought we could do anything, and we had all of those other preconditions: the work ethic, some sort of social pressure, which meant that people were doing the right things, and they wouldn’t want to live on the dole,” Mr. Norberg says. “And then for 20 years, from 1960 to 1980, we doubled the size of the government spending as a percentage of GDP. That’s the aberration in Swedish history.” The Swedish welfare state first was a safety net for the needy. Over time the political class moved to “socialize the lives of the middle classes as well.” The plan: “Increase their taxes, and their benefits, and then they will buy into this system.”

The consequences were predictable. “It resulted in less work, people preferring to stay at home and paint the house rather than hiring someone to do it, general lack of getting the kind of education that matters. It led to entrepreneurs leaving Sweden.” Private-sector employment declined from the 1970s to the ’90s, while disposable-income and economic growth was relatively slow. Some of the country’s best companies and brightest minds fled an onerous inheritance tax.
The Democraps are in love with an illusion. Sweden is not what they think it is.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Milo
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Re: Why Bernie Sanders is wrong about Sweden

Post by Milo » Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:56 am

Yes, Sweden is obviously a disaster because it's not going as fast as the those who don't approve of its system think it should!
In 2014 the National Institute of Economic research predicted GDP growth of 1.8%, 3.1% and 3.4% in 2014, 2015 and 2016 respectively.[22][needs update] A comparison of upcoming economic growth rates of EU countries revealed that the Baltic states, Poland, and Slovakia are the only countries that are expected to keep comparable or higher growth rates.[23]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Sweden

neverfail
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Re: Why Bernie Sanders is wrong about Sweden

Post by neverfail » Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:55 pm

Milo wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:56 am
Yes, Sweden is obviously a disaster because it's not going as fast as the those who don't approve of its system think it should!
In 2014 the National Institute of Economic research predicted GDP growth of 1.8%, 3.1% and 3.4% in 2014, 2015 and 2016 respectively.[22][needs update] A comparison of upcoming economic growth rates of EU countries revealed that the Baltic states, Poland, and Slovakia are the only countries that are expected to keep comparable or higher growth rates.[23]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Sweden
Those ex-Soviet Union vassal state have a lot of ground to make up so their admirable growth performance would have a lot to do with that.

https://wits.worldbank.org/CountryProfi ... by-country

Sweden's most important external trading partners record similarly slow growth patterns to Sweden itself. That I think has more of a bearing on Sweden's fortunes today that past, ill-advised social experiments moved by a blend of complacency and hubris.

neverfail
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Re: Why CASSOWARY is wrong about Sweden

Post by neverfail » Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:17 pm

cassowary wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:31 am
The Swedes are not Socialists
Sweden was one of the world’s fastest-growing economies for nearly a century. But by the 1960s, the country began to take its wealth-creating prowess for granted. I tell Mr. Norberg about New York Mayor Bill de Blasio ’s assertion: “There’s plenty of money in this world, it’s just in the wrong hands.” In 1960s Sweden, Mr. Norberg replies, “that’s almost verbatim what they said back then: ‘Now we’re this rich. Shouldn’t we just distribute it, and give it to the people and the places we like?’ ” Such thinking overtook the country’s dominant center-left Social Democratic Party.

“We thought we could do anything, and we had all of those other preconditions: the work ethic, some sort of social pressure, which meant that people were doing the right things, and they wouldn’t want to live on the dole,” Mr. Norberg says. “And then for 20 years, from 1960 to 1980, we doubled the size of the government spending as a percentage of GDP. That’s the aberration in Swedish history.” The Swedish welfare state first was a safety net for the needy. Over time the political class moved to “socialize the lives of the middle classes as well.” The plan: “Increase their taxes, and their benefits, and then they will buy into this system.”

The consequences were predictable. “It resulted in less work, people preferring to stay at home and paint the house rather than hiring someone to do it, general lack of getting the kind of education that matters. It led to entrepreneurs leaving Sweden.” Private-sector employment declined from the 1970s to the ’90s, while disposable-income and economic growth was relatively slow. Some of the country’s best companies and brightest minds fled an onerous inheritance tax.
The Democraps are in love with an illusion. Sweden is not what they think it is.
Sweden has not remained stuck in its past Cassowary and neither should you in yours.

I believe that Sweden's fortunes have changed for the better over the most recent quarter century since they had the good sense to bring in some free market reforms. So if the likes of B. Sanders keeps his attention focused on that and the US establishment does not unduly block his efforts to bring America some much needed improvements, he would turn out to be quite an okay US president.

..................................................................................................................................
(As an aside from the above:)

I possibly should not do so but I will let you in on a dirty little secret, cass.

Sweden was not the only country back in the 1960's to reach the same conclusion. Here in Australia a similar mindset developed among the younger generation to the effect: Australia is a rich, developed country and as such we can take future (effortless?) economic growth for granted. So the challenge now is to ensure that the proceeds of all of that inevitable, desirable growth be fairly distributed throughout the community.

To members of my parents' generation who had lived through the Depression and war, prosperity had been something they had to strive and struggle for. For those of my post-WW2 generation, brought up in peace and suburban comfort, prosperity was something we simply had. It was here for keeps and not going to go away.

However, whereas Sweden got the decades of Social Democrats government; especially the one led by Prime Minister Olaf Palme; Australia only elected the short-lived and shambolic Whitlam Labor government. That is likely a big part of the reason why my country did not step into the Swedish trap.

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Milo
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Re: Why CASSOWARY is wrong about Sweden

Post by Milo » Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:35 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:17 pm
cassowary wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:31 am
The Swedes are not Socialists
Sweden was one of the world’s fastest-growing economies for nearly a century. But by the 1960s, the country began to take its wealth-creating prowess for granted. I tell Mr. Norberg about New York Mayor Bill de Blasio ’s assertion: “There’s plenty of money in this world, it’s just in the wrong hands.” In 1960s Sweden, Mr. Norberg replies, “that’s almost verbatim what they said back then: ‘Now we’re this rich. Shouldn’t we just distribute it, and give it to the people and the places we like?’ ” Such thinking overtook the country’s dominant center-left Social Democratic Party.

“We thought we could do anything, and we had all of those other preconditions: the work ethic, some sort of social pressure, which meant that people were doing the right things, and they wouldn’t want to live on the dole,” Mr. Norberg says. “And then for 20 years, from 1960 to 1980, we doubled the size of the government spending as a percentage of GDP. That’s the aberration in Swedish history.” The Swedish welfare state first was a safety net for the needy. Over time the political class moved to “socialize the lives of the middle classes as well.” The plan: “Increase their taxes, and their benefits, and then they will buy into this system.”

The consequences were predictable. “It resulted in less work, people preferring to stay at home and paint the house rather than hiring someone to do it, general lack of getting the kind of education that matters. It led to entrepreneurs leaving Sweden.” Private-sector employment declined from the 1970s to the ’90s, while disposable-income and economic growth was relatively slow. Some of the country’s best companies and brightest minds fled an onerous inheritance tax.
The Democraps are in love with an illusion. Sweden is not what they think it is.
Sweden has not remained stuck in its past Cassowary and neither should you in yours.

I believe that Sweden's fortunes have changed for the better over the most recent quarter century since they had the good sense to bring in some free market reforms. So if the likes of B. Sanders keeps his attention focused on that and the US establishment does not unduly block his efforts to bring America some much needed improvements, he would turn out to be quite an okay US president.

..................................................................................................................................
(As an aside from the above:)

I possibly should not do so but I will let you in on a dirty little secret, cass.

Sweden was not the only country back in the 1960's to reach the same conclusion. Here in Australia a similar mindset developed among the younger generation to the effect: Australia is a rich, developed country and as such we can take future (effortless?) economic growth for granted. So the challenge now is to ensure that the proceeds of all of that inevitable, desirable growth be fairly distributed throughout the community.

To members of my parents' generation who had lived through the Depression and war, prosperity had been something they had to strive and struggle for. For those of my post-WW2 generation, brought up in peace and suburban comfort, prosperity was something we simply had. It was here for keeps and not going to go away.

However, whereas Sweden got the decades of Social Democrats government; especially the one led by Prime Minister Olaf Palme; Australia only elected the short-lived and shambolic Whitlam Labor government. That is likely a big part of the reason why my country did not step into the Swedish trap.
I welcome such a trap!

Jim the Moron
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Re: Why Bernie Sanders is wrong about Sweden

Post by Jim the Moron » Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:31 am

Sweden seems determined to relocate to hell, with its government providing the handbasket.

"Sweden: The Price of Migration"
https://gatestoneinstitute.org/15081/sw ... tion-price

"Bombings in Sweden Now Routine. Muslim Gangs Responsible."
https://thenewamerican.com/world-news/e ... esponsible

neverfail
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Re: Why Bernie Sanders is wrong about Sweden

Post by neverfail » Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:50 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:31 am
Sweden seems determined to relocate to hell, with its government providing the handbasket.

"Sweden: The Price of Migration"
https://gatestoneinstitute.org/15081/sw ... tion-price

"Bombings in Sweden Now Routine. Muslim Gangs Responsible."
https://thenewamerican.com/world-news/e ... esponsible
From this evidence you are not wrong Jim. But what does the fact that Muslim immigrants generally reap no benefits from it have to do with the virtues of Swedish social welfare per se?

I agree that letting in more Muslim settlers on family reunion (i.e. humanitarian grounds) is only going to exacerbate the problem given the apparent insurmountable barriers that stop them from obtaining dignified gainful employment in the Swedish economy - but I see that as a separate issue. I am not saying that the US should go as far as Sweden with improved social security but I hope that you and others do not spuriously try to use Sweden's present day woes as an argument against the US going at least as far in Sweden's direction as Canada and Australia.

Jim the Moron
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Re: Why Bernie Sanders is wrong about Sweden

Post by Jim the Moron » Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:36 am

neverfail wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:50 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:31 am
Sweden seems determined to relocate to hell, with its government providing the handbasket.

"Sweden: The Price of Migration"
https://gatestoneinstitute.org/15081/sw ... tion-price

"Bombings in Sweden Now Routine. Muslim Gangs Responsible."
https://thenewamerican.com/world-news/e ... esponsible
From this evidence you are not wrong Jim. But what does the fact that Muslim immigrants generally reap no benefits from it have to do with the virtues of Swedish social welfare per se?

I agree that letting in more Muslim settlers on family reunion (i.e. humanitarian grounds) is only going to exacerbate the problem given the apparent insurmountable barriers that stop them from obtaining dignified gainful employment in the Swedish economy - but I see that as a separate issue. I am not saying that the US should go as far as Sweden with improved social security but I hope that you and others do not spuriously try to use Sweden's present day woes as an argument against the US going at least as far in Sweden's direction as Canada and Australia.
"dignified gainful employment" (??) Unfortunately that isn't the objective of barbaric Muslim invaders in Europe and elsewhere. Rather, they seek to disrupt civilized societies in order to promote the installation of primitive Islamist practices. Crimes perpetuated by Muslims in Sweden are rampant. The Swedish government sleeps on it.

neverfail
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Re: Why Bernie Sanders is wrong about Sweden

Post by neverfail » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:36 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:36 am


"dignified gainful employment" (??) Unfortunately that isn't the objective of barbaric Muslim invaders in Europe and elsewhere. Rather, they seek to disrupt civilized societies in order to promote the installation of primitive Islamist practices. Crimes perpetuated by Muslims in Sweden are rampant. The Swedish government sleeps on it.
Twaddle!

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