China - US Trade War

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Sertorio
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Re: playing with fire!

Post by Sertorio » Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:06 am

neverfail wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:46 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:22 am
neverfail wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:42 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:26 am
I would hate to live in the China of the cultural revolution, but I would know it couldn't last. Faced with the ideological dictatorship, you can afford to sit back and wait for it to collapse.
SERTORIO: you presume that you would have had the luxury to sit out the tumult and the repression. How do you know that you would have been granted that privilege? How do you know that you would not have been imprisoned? Tortured? Killed?

That's what makes me laugh about you radical left types - the smug presumption that it cannot happen to you. That you will be a detached observer throughout while others struggle, suffer and are destroyed.

Karl Marx had the same terrible detachment about him. While lauding revolution he never saw that revolution might rear up and bite him on the bum.
That was not the main message of my post. My point is that money tyranny is a lot worse than any ideological dictatorship, but far too many people simply refuse to recognize that.
We all use money - even you do Sertorio. So in what way can it be a tyranny when how we use it is a matter of choice?
Your choice depends on the quantity available. The more you have the more tempted you are to use it to enslave those who have less than you. But of course you know that very well...

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Doc
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:09 pm
Location: Cradle To Grave

Re: playing with fire!

Post by Doc » Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:09 am

neverfail wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:57 pm
Doc wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:07 am
neverfail wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:42 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:26 am
I would hate to live in the China of the cultural revolution, but I would know it couldn't last. Faced with the ideological dictatorship, you can afford to sit back and wait for it to collapse.
SERTORIO: you presume that you would have had the luxury to sit out the tumult and the repression. How do you know that you would have been granted that privilege? How do you know that you would not have been imprisoned? Tortured? Killed?

That's what makes me laugh about you radical left types - the smug presumption that it cannot happen to you. That you will be a detached observer throughout while others struggle, suffer and are destroyed.

Karl Marx had the same terrible detachment about him. While lauding revolution he never saw that revolution might rear up and bite him on the bum.
Indeed. 157 million people were murdered by their own socialist governments in the last century. There is nothing comparable to that.
What I was saying was that during revolutionary upheavals things tend to spiral out of control and with the breakdown of law and order nasty things happen. Indeed, it often take a ruthless tyranny to bring the disorder to an end.
Most of the murders happen years after the respective revolutions. The US did not have an equivilent reign of terror.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Doc
Posts: 4254
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:09 pm
Location: Cradle To Grave

Re: playing with fire!

Post by Doc » Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:13 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:06 am
neverfail wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:46 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:22 am
neverfail wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:42 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:26 am
I would hate to live in the China of the cultural revolution, but I would know it couldn't last. Faced with the ideological dictatorship, you can afford to sit back and wait for it to collapse.
SERTORIO: you presume that you would have had the luxury to sit out the tumult and the repression. How do you know that you would have been granted that privilege? How do you know that you would not have been imprisoned? Tortured? Killed?

That's what makes me laugh about you radical left types - the smug presumption that it cannot happen to you. That you will be a detached observer throughout while others struggle, suffer and are destroyed.

Karl Marx had the same terrible detachment about him. While lauding revolution he never saw that revolution might rear up and bite him on the bum.
That was not the main message of my post. My point is that money tyranny is a lot worse than any ideological dictatorship, but far too many people simply refuse to recognize that.
We all use money - even you do Sertorio. So in what way can it be a tyranny when how we use it is a matter of choice?
Your choice depends on the quantity available. The more you have the more tempted you are to use it to enslave those who have less than you. But of course you know that very well...
How is the CCP's social credit system not partly a money tyranny system? Partly its restriction say people with low scores cannot spend their moeny inways that others can. And in fact have a harder time making money.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Sertorio
Posts: 3433
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: playing with fire!

Post by Sertorio » Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:38 am

Doc wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:13 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:06 am
neverfail wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:46 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:22 am
neverfail wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:42 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:26 am
I would hate to live in the China of the cultural revolution, but I would know it couldn't last. Faced with the ideological dictatorship, you can afford to sit back and wait for it to collapse.
SERTORIO: you presume that you would have had the luxury to sit out the tumult and the repression. How do you know that you would have been granted that privilege? How do you know that you would not have been imprisoned? Tortured? Killed?

That's what makes me laugh about you radical left types - the smug presumption that it cannot happen to you. That you will be a detached observer throughout while others struggle, suffer and are destroyed.

Karl Marx had the same terrible detachment about him. While lauding revolution he never saw that revolution might rear up and bite him on the bum.
That was not the main message of my post. My point is that money tyranny is a lot worse than any ideological dictatorship, but far too many people simply refuse to recognize that.
We all use money - even you do Sertorio. So in what way can it be a tyranny when how we use it is a matter of choice?
Your choice depends on the quantity available. The more you have the more tempted you are to use it to enslave those who have less than you. But of course you know that very well...
How is the CCP's social credit system not partly a money tyranny system? Partly its restriction say people with low scores cannot spend their moeny inways that others can. And in fact have a harder time making money.
In China there is a power greater than the power of money. In Western countries, there isn't. Neither system is good enough, as far as I am concerned. The solution is making the concentration of money almost impossible. How? By transforming all firms into cooperatives and making workers' management the rule. Present day education makes such a system feasible.

neverfail
Posts: 4968
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am
Location: Singapore

Re: playing with fire!

Post by neverfail » Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:07 pm

Doc wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:09 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:57 pm


What I was saying was that during revolutionary upheavals things tend to spiral out of control and with the breakdown of law and order nasty things happen. Indeed, it often take a ruthless tyranny to bring the disorder to an end.
Most of the murders happen years after the respective revolutions. The US did not have an equivilent reign of terror.
Not so in the case of the French revolution where the Reign of Terror, inaugurated by a faction within the revolutionaries, occurred during the decade of chaos that followed in the wake of the 1789 uprising in Paris when France was simply not being governed at all. The rot came to an end only after Napoleon Bonaparte had assumed dictatorial powers: which is why France ended up under his dictatorship. Better to live under a decisive tyrant than in the midst of perpetual uncertainty.

In the case of the USA it seems that law and order did not break down completely - which makes the American revolution somewhat unique. Perhaps the Anglo-Americans of that era had inherited a certain amount of the English virtue of self-restraint? However, law and order still broke down sufficiently to allow vengeful mobs of independence supporters to drive out American empire-loyalists, known at the time as "Tory Americans", dispossessing these of their property. Luckily King George rewarded these dispossessed subjects for their loyalty by awarding them land in future Canada in part-compensation for their losses.

neverfail
Posts: 4968
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am
Location: Singapore

Re: playing with fire!

Post by neverfail » Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:08 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:06 am
neverfail wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:46 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:22 am
neverfail wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:42 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:26 am
I would hate to live in the China of the cultural revolution, but I would know it couldn't last. Faced with the ideological dictatorship, you can afford to sit back and wait for it to collapse.
SERTORIO: you presume that you would have had the luxury to sit out the tumult and the repression. How do you know that you would have been granted that privilege? How do you know that you would not have been imprisoned? Tortured? Killed?

That's what makes me laugh about you radical left types - the smug presumption that it cannot happen to you. That you will be a detached observer throughout while others struggle, suffer and are destroyed.

Karl Marx had the same terrible detachment about him. While lauding revolution he never saw that revolution might rear up and bite him on the bum.
That was not the main message of my post. My point is that money tyranny is a lot worse than any ideological dictatorship, but far too many people simply refuse to recognize that.
We all use money - even you do Sertorio. So in what way can it be a tyranny when how we use it is a matter of choice?
Your choice depends on the quantity available. The more you have the more tempted you are to use it to enslave those who have less than you. But of course you know that very well...
Speak for yourself Sertorio! Not everyone is so motivated.

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Sertorio
Posts: 3433
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: playing with fire!

Post by Sertorio » Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:14 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:08 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:06 am
neverfail wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:46 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:22 am
neverfail wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:42 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:26 am
I would hate to live in the China of the cultural revolution, but I would know it couldn't last. Faced with the ideological dictatorship, you can afford to sit back and wait for it to collapse.
SERTORIO: you presume that you would have had the luxury to sit out the tumult and the repression. How do you know that you would have been granted that privilege? How do you know that you would not have been imprisoned? Tortured? Killed?

That's what makes me laugh about you radical left types - the smug presumption that it cannot happen to you. That you will be a detached observer throughout while others struggle, suffer and are destroyed.

Karl Marx had the same terrible detachment about him. While lauding revolution he never saw that revolution might rear up and bite him on the bum.
That was not the main message of my post. My point is that money tyranny is a lot worse than any ideological dictatorship, but far too many people simply refuse to recognize that.
We all use money - even you do Sertorio. So in what way can it be a tyranny when how we use it is a matter of choice?
Your choice depends on the quantity available. The more you have the more tempted you are to use it to enslave those who have less than you. But of course you know that very well...
Speak for yourself Sertorio! Not everyone is so motivated.
You are being naive...

neverfail
Posts: 4968
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am
Location: Singapore

Re: playing with fire!

Post by neverfail » Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:18 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:14 pm
You are being naive...
...and you cynical!

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cassowary
Posts: 3831
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:30 pm

Re: China - US Trade War

Post by cassowary » Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:36 am

neverfail wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:46 am
Well put Sertorio. But the trade war is not meant to fix America's economic problems but to give Trump supporters the cheap thrill of knowing that the USA is still hairy-chested strong enough to push other countries around - unlike during the "weak" Obama administration.
My theory is different. I think the real purpose of the trade war is to get factories to move out of China into other countries.
The Imp :D

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Sertorio
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Re: China - US Trade War

Post by Sertorio » Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:44 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:36 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:46 am
Well put Sertorio. But the trade war is not meant to fix America's economic problems but to give Trump supporters the cheap thrill of knowing that the USA is still hairy-chested strong enough to push other countries around - unlike during the "weak" Obama administration.
My theory is different. I think the real purpose of the trade war is to get factories to move out of China into other countries.
In other words, a pure act of aggression. The purpose is not a gain for the US, but a loss for China. A good recipe for disaster...

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