"It's an ill wind....."

Discussion of current events
neverfail
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Re: "It's an ill wind....."

Post by neverfail » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:45 pm

Doc wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:18 am

Any regime that outlaws fully clothed women from dancing but can't stop them, even with the threat of jail, is inherently weak. The Mullahs in IRan will go down once hit with a feather.
Doc, with due respects I think that you are absolutely wrong on that.

Iranians might chafe at the restrictions placed on their daily lives by their clerical power elite but that is a quarrel between Iranians and their rulers. You might have had the experience with a family argument where an outsider, even one with conciliatory good intentions, buts in the whole family will forget their disagreement to band together and shout down the busybody outsider. Same principle applied here. Should the United States try to force its will on Iran it will serve only to bring the populace behind their rulers in solidarity.

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cassowary
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Re: "It's an ill wind....."

Post by cassowary » Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:02 am

neverfail wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:09 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:36 am

The objective was to save Vietnamese lives....
But the consequence was that they unnecessarily destroyed far more Vietnamese lives. Once the US war machine gets into gear; like a Frankenstein monster let loose they never seem to care how many they kill.
You prefer to leave Vietnam to the tender mercies of the Socialists/Communists than to try to save because of the lives a war will cost. By that logic, you won't want the US to rescue France from the Nazis because it too will cost lives. By that logic, you don't want the US to fight in the Pacific to protect Australia/NZ from the Imperial Japanese during WWII. That would cost lives too.

After the fall of Vietnam, hundreds of thousands of refugees died as they fled Socialism in leaky boats. We don't know how many perished in Vietnam itself. Even worse, millions died in Cambodia as the dominoes fell. The build-up of US forces in Vietnam begun in 1965. Had they not done so, Vietnam would have fallen in 1965 instead of 1975. In domino fashion, the whole of SE Asia would have fallen to Socialist regimes.

That's because the newly formed countries did not have the means to stand yet. The 10 year reprieve paid for by US blood and treasure allowed us in SE Asia time to put our houses in order. I am not the only one who thinks this way. I am in good company. also said the same thing. The war was winnable, contrary to what you think.
“In 1965, when the U.S. military moved massively into South Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia and the Philippines faced internal threats from armed insurgencies and the communist underground was still active in Singapore. Indonesia [was] in the throes of a failed communist coup,” Singapore’s founding father, Lee Kuan Yew, wrote in his 2000 memoir, “From Third World to First.” “America’s action enabled noncommunist Southeast Asia to put their own houses in order. By 1975, they were in better shape to stand up to the communists. Had there been no U.S. intervention, the will of these countries to resist them would have melted and Southeast Asia would most likely gone communist.”
cassowary wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:36 am
We all know by now the loss of lives that always accompany attempts to build Socialism/Communism.
In the case of Russia and China, do either of these have anything other than a blood soaked history over the many centuries before Communism came along? Do you have the false impression that political power in either had previously been about tender loving care? There must be a reason for that lamentable historical record. You have never needed socialism in those places to ensure a bloodbath.
Which country does not have blood soaked history? Don't use that as an excuse for Socialism. The Socialist/Communist ideology is the biggest killer of all ideologies and I have explained why to you so many times. It goes against human nature. We are not meant to be collectivized. We are all selfish. That's they way we are made. To go against this requires a lot of compulsion. Even so, it does not work well. Even this poor result requires a dictator to enforce. That is why Socialism is such a killer.
The Imp :D

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Sertorio
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Re: "It's an ill wind....."

Post by Sertorio » Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:36 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:02 am
(...)The Socialist/Communist ideology is the biggest killer of all ideologies and I have explained why to you so many times. It goes against human nature. We are not meant to be collectivized. We are all selfish. That's they way we are made. To go against this requires a lot of compulsion.(...)
You still do not understand what socialism is. Either it is beyond your capacity to understand, or you have decided that you were not going to understand it...

neverfail
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Re: It was a civil war Cassowary.

Post by neverfail » Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:51 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:02 am
You prefer to leave Vietnam to the tender mercies of the Socialists/Communists than to try to save because of the lives a war will cost.
With hindsight I would have preferred to have seen Vietnam left alone so that the Vietnamese could have sorted out their own issues. You do realize, I hope, that the crowd on the opposing side whom you routinely label "socialists" were fellow Vietnamese? Sometimes I wonder!

Better than having shit bombed out of them by callous foreigners.

neverfail
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Re: "It's an ill wind....."

Post by neverfail » Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:52 am

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:36 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:02 am
(...)The Socialist/Communist ideology is the biggest killer of all ideologies and I have explained why to you so many times. It goes against human nature. We are not meant to be collectivized. We are all selfish. That's they way we are made. To go against this requires a lot of compulsion.(...)
You still do not understand what socialism is. Either it is beyond your capacity to understand, or you have decided that you were not going to understand it...
You must surely be aware by now that he has a closed mind.

neverfail
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Re: Russian society is conditioned to be ruled by strongmen.

Post by neverfail » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:09 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:02 am
We are not meant to be collectivized.
We humans are by nature social animals who need each other. I would have said that the sort of cutthroat competitiveness that rugged individualist capitalism imposes on society at large goes against human nature.

The problem with collectivization in the USSR was that it was not freely entered into by the farmers and farm workers but imposed by compulsive force from above. So as I see it the problem does not lie with socialism per se (which is only a set of ideals - harmless by itself) but with the authoritarian abuse of power by an elite that had no checks and balances to restrain them.

Not that Russia is historically short of centuries of experience with authoritarian abuse of power by numerically small elites - if you know anything about Czarist autocracy.

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cassowary
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Re: It was a civil war Cassowary.

Post by cassowary » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:48 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:51 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:02 am
You prefer to leave Vietnam to the tender mercies of the Socialists/Communists than to try to save because of the lives a war will cost.
With hindsight I would have preferred to have seen Vietnam left alone so that the Vietnamese could have sorted out their own issues. You do realize, I hope, that the crowd on the opposing side whom you routinely label "socialists" were fellow Vietnamese? Sometimes I wonder!

Better than having shit bombed out of them by callous foreigners.
So was Berlin, not to mention Nagasaki and Hiroshima. How come I don’t hear you complaining? You want the US to win wars without killing people. I know what it is. You want Socialists to win. That’s why you object to US intervention in Vietnam.
The Imp :D

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cassowary
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Cassowary’s version of dialectic materialism

Post by cassowary » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:07 am

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:36 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:02 am
(...)The Socialist/Communist ideology is the biggest killer of all ideologies and I have explained why to you so many times. It goes against human nature. We are not meant to be collectivized. We are all selfish. That's they way we are made. To go against this requires a lot of compulsion.(...)
You still do not understand what socialism is. Either it is beyond your capacity to understand, or you have decided that you were not going to understand it...
I do understand. It is people like you and Neverfail that do not.

Marx gave us the theory of dialectic materialism. It goes something like this. There is only the material world and nothing else. Society evolves according to the forces of nature. It has evolved from primitive communalism to slavery to feudalism to capitalism. The next phases are Socialism and then Communism.

My theory goes like this.

1)Democracy will lead to Socialism because as Aristotle said, the poor are the majority and the will of the majority is supreme in a democracy.

2)Socialism leads to poverty and dictatorship.

Point 2) is relevant to our topic of discussion. So I won’t talk about 1) which I spoke of previously.

Human nature makes Socialism unworkable. The law of nature is that each organism competes with others to survive and pass on its genes. Nature has made us selfish and thus Socialism unworkable. Capitalism only requires each individual to pursue its own interests.

Socialism requires each individual to sacrifice his own interest for the good of the community. Thus is against the force of nature. To go against this force you need a counterforce. That is why Socialism always end up with dictators. Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Fatty Kim and Castro were all Socialist dictators. And they were also mass murderers.

This is cassowary’s version of dialectic materialism. Unlike Marx’s version, I have history to back me up.
The Imp :D

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armchair_pundit
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Re: Cassowary’s version of dialectic materialism

Post by armchair_pundit » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:20 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:07 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:36 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:02 am
(...)The Socialist/Communist ideology is the biggest killer of all ideologies and I have explained why to you so many times. It goes against human nature. We are not meant to be collectivized. We are all selfish. That's they way we are made. To go against this requires a lot of compulsion.(...)
You still do not understand what socialism is. Either it is beyond your capacity to understand, or you have decided that you were not going to understand it...
I do understand. It is people like you and Neverfail that do not.

Marx gave us the theory of dialectic materialism. It goes something like this. There is only the material world and nothing else. Society evolves according to the forces of nature. It has evolved from primitive communalism to slavery to feudalism to capitalism. The next phases are Socialism and then Communism.

My theory goes like this.

1)Democracy will lead to Socialism because as Aristotle said, the poor are the majority and the will of the majority is supreme in a democracy.

2)Socialism leads to poverty and dictatorship.

Point 2) is relevant to our topic of discussion. So I won’t talk about 1) which I spoke of previously.

Human nature makes Socialism unworkable. The law of nature is that each organism competes with others to survive and pass on its genes. Nature has made us selfish and thus Socialism unworkable. Capitalism only requires each individual to pursue its own interests.

Socialism requires each individual to sacrifice his own interest for the good of the community. Thus is against the force of nature. To go against this force you need a counterforce. That is why Socialism always end up with dictators. Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Fatty Kim and Castro were all Socialist dictators. And they were also mass murderers.

This is cassowary’s version of dialectic materialism. Unlike Marx’s version, I have history to back me up.
neverfail wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:52 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:36 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:02 am
(...)The Socialist/Communist ideology is the biggest killer of all ideologies and I have explained why to you so many times. It goes against human nature. We are not meant to be collectivized. We are all selfish. That's they way we are made. To go against this requires a lot of compulsion.(...)
You still do not understand what socialism is. Either it is beyond your capacity to understand, or you have decided that you were not going to understand it...
You must surely be aware by now that WE HAVE a closed mind.
There fixed it for you :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Because trying as hard as you have, you can never convince us to embrace the siren song of social-communism. EVEN by revising history and pointing guns at our heads in 'Murica, and apparently Singapore. Kill enough of us and maybe, but that might backfire (pun intended) terribly for your cause and its followers...

You can't out debate Cassowary, so you try ridicule and denigrating his culture. Straight out of the Alinsky rules...

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Sertorio
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Re: Cassowary’s version of dialectic materialism

Post by Sertorio » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:57 am

armchair_pundit wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:20 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:07 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:36 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:02 am
(...)The Socialist/Communist ideology is the biggest killer of all ideologies and I have explained why to you so many times. It goes against human nature. We are not meant to be collectivized. We are all selfish. That's they way we are made. To go against this requires a lot of compulsion.(...)
You still do not understand what socialism is. Either it is beyond your capacity to understand, or you have decided that you were not going to understand it...
I do understand. It is people like you and Neverfail that do not.

Marx gave us the theory of dialectic materialism. It goes something like this. There is only the material world and nothing else. Society evolves according to the forces of nature. It has evolved from primitive communalism to slavery to feudalism to capitalism. The next phases are Socialism and then Communism.

My theory goes like this.

1)Democracy will lead to Socialism because as Aristotle said, the poor are the majority and the will of the majority is supreme in a democracy.

2)Socialism leads to poverty and dictatorship.

Point 2) is relevant to our topic of discussion. So I won’t talk about 1) which I spoke of previously.

Human nature makes Socialism unworkable. The law of nature is that each organism competes with others to survive and pass on its genes. Nature has made us selfish and thus Socialism unworkable. Capitalism only requires each individual to pursue its own interests.

Socialism requires each individual to sacrifice his own interest for the good of the community. Thus is against the force of nature. To go against this force you need a counterforce. That is why Socialism always end up with dictators. Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Fatty Kim and Castro were all Socialist dictators. And they were also mass murderers.

This is cassowary’s version of dialectic materialism. Unlike Marx’s version, I have history to back me up.
neverfail wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:52 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:36 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:02 am
(...)The Socialist/Communist ideology is the biggest killer of all ideologies and I have explained why to you so many times. It goes against human nature. We are not meant to be collectivized. We are all selfish. That's they way we are made. To go against this requires a lot of compulsion.(...)
You still do not understand what socialism is. Either it is beyond your capacity to understand, or you have decided that you were not going to understand it...
You must surely be aware by now that WE HAVE a closed mind.
There fixed it for you :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Because trying as hard as you have, you can never convince us to embrace the siren song of social-communism. EVEN by revising history and pointing guns at our heads in 'Murica, and apparently Singapore. Kill enough of us and maybe, but that might backfire (pun intended) terribly for your cause and its followers...

You can't out debate Cassowary, so you try ridicule and denigrating his culture. Straight out of the Alinsky rules...
Intelligent people know that Socialism and Marxism are not the same thing. Just like the Roman Catholic Church and the Sevent Day Adventists are not the same thing...Unfortunately there aren't as many intelligent people arouns as one would like...

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