"It's an ill wind....."

Discussion of current events
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Doc
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Re: "It's an ill wind....."

Post by Doc » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:20 am

cassowary wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:53 am
Doc wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:18 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:07 pm
Doc wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:27 pm
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:03 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:01 pm
Chin Peng was perhaps the greatest of Malaysian patriots. He led the fight against the Japanese occupation, and then the fight against British occupation. Politics be damned. Malaysian authorities won't even allow his ashes to be returned from Thailand for interment in his beloved Malaya.
Yes
I agree. Chin Peng was a nationalist who loved his country. But he was also a Socialist/Communist. Chin and Ho Chi Minh were much alike. Both were Nationalists and Communists. Both fought the Japanese and later the returning European colonial power.

Neverfail is trying to convince us to ignore Ho’s Socialism/Communism in order to discredit US intervention in Vietnam.

He is saying, “Look. There was no need to fight in Vietnam. Let Ho win. He was a patriot trying to unify his country. The yanks got it wrong.”

He might have been a nationalist but he was also a Socialist/Communist. Once his regime was in power, millions died. Once Vietnam fell, so did Cambodia too.

Chin Peng was the same. He was both a nationalist and a Socialist/Communist. Strangely Neverfail does not seem to object to British and Commonwealth forces fighting to save Malaya and Singapore.

But he is vehement in his opposition to US involvement in Vietnam.

Both events were essentially the same.
The difference with Veitnam is the British after WWII kept Ho from attaining power by using Japanese POWs to suppress independence in Vietnam. They did it in an effort to support colonialism
Yes. There is a difference. But Chin and Ho were both nationalists and Communists. The fact that the British stopped Ho from taking power before the return of the French does not justify Neverfail ‘s position.

We were debating whether US involvement in Vietnam was honorable or not. He thinks not because he sees Ho as a nationalist and ignores his Socialism. Thus in his mind, there was no good reason for the US to fight a Vietnamese patriot trying to unify his country.

I pointed out that Chin Peng was also a nationalist. Yet Neverfail appears to support British and Commonwealth troops fighting in the Malayan Emergency. I was pointing out his inconsistency when both Ho and Chin were so much alike. Both were nationalist and Socialist.
my point was about the domino theory. Ho was not making much progress after the French came back until China fell to Mao. Which meant he could get arms to fight the French. China --> Laos--> Cambodia --> Vietnam
I see.
Honestly I did not know anything about Malaysia after the war. The dominoes stopped falling because Cambodia was aligned with China and Vietnam with the Soviet Union. Who were not getting along very well at the time.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

neverfail
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Re: "It's an ill wind....."

Post by neverfail » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:10 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:01 pm
Chin Peng was perhaps the greatest of Malaysian patriots. He led the fight against the Japanese occupation, and then the fight against British occupation. Politics be damned. Malaysian authorities won't even allow his ashes to be returned from Thailand for interment in his beloved Malaya.
Well of course they wont Jim. They would not want his burial place in Malaysia to become a shrine for local Marxists: you know, a la a sort of home grown Che Guevara.

In any case the Malaysia establishment is ethnic Malay while Chin was/is ethnic Chinese. The Chinese there are only second class citizens, it seems even in death.
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:03 pm
I agree. Chin Peng was a nationalist who loved his country. But he was also a Socialist/Communist. Chin and Ho Chi Minh were much alike. Both were Nationalists and Communists. Both fought the Japanese and later the returning European colonial power.


Neverfail is trying to convince us to ignore Ho’s Socialism/Communism in order to discredit US intervention in Vietnam.

He is saying, “Look. There was no need to fight in Vietnam. Let Ho win. He was a patriot trying to unify his country. The yanks got it wrong.”
If you believe that I wrote that then I suggest that you urgently undertake a remedial course in English comprehension.
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:03 pm
Once his regime was in power, millions died. Once Vietnam fell, so did Cambodia too.
Khmer Rouge Cambodia was ruled by a madman. Vietnam's Communist governors were (and still are) perfectly sane.
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:03 pm
Strangely Neverfail does not seem to object to British and Commonwealth forces fighting to save Malaya and Singapore.
Quite right! Malaysia was winnable in a way that Vietnam never was.
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:03 pm
But he is vehement in his opposition to US involvement in Vietnam.
Waste of good lives and resources!
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:03 pm
Both events were essentially the same.
Not if you are a political pragmatist like me. It might seem that way, however, if you are a psychotic, anti-Communist armchair ideologue from out of the Cold War past. :D

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Re: "It's an ill wind....."

Post by cassowary » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:16 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:10 pm
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:03 pm
Strangely Neverfail does not seem to object to British and Commonwealth forces fighting to save Malaya and Singapore.
Quite right! Malaysia was winnable in a way that Vietnam never was.
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:03 pm
But he is vehement in his opposition to US involvement in Vietnam.
Waste of good lives and resources!
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:03 pm
Both events were essentially the same.
Not if you are a political pragmatist like me. It might seem that way, however, if you are a psychotic, anti-Communist armchair ideologue from out of the Cold War past. :D
So, you are now saying that you opposed the US involvement in Vietnam for pragmatic reasons and not because you believe it was morally wrong for the US to be involved? Your reason is that the war in Vietnam was unwinnable and thus a waste of American lives? Is that it?

If so, then your position has improved. The US was not morally wrong for going to war in Vietnam. They were trying to do a good deed - to stop a murderous ideology from spreading. But they were strategically wrong to try because the war was unwinnable.
The Imp :D

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Re: "It's an ill wind....."

Post by Sertorio » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:30 am

cassowary wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:16 am
The US was not morally wrong for going to war in Vietnam. They were trying to do a good deed - to stop a murderous ideology from spreading. But they were strategically wrong to try because the war was unwinnable.
So, what makes the US think that a war with Iran is winnable?... :?

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Re: "It's an ill wind....."

Post by neverfail » Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:25 am

cassowary wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:16 am

So, you are now saying that you opposed the US involvement in Vietnam for pragmatic reasons and not because you believe it was morally wrong for the US to be involved? Your reason is that the war in Vietnam was unwinnable and thus a waste of American lives? Is that it?
I can do without that above patronizing tone of yours, Cassowary

Waste of American lives? Yes. But even more so a waste of even greater numbers of Vietnamese lives: just in case you are under the odd impression that a Vietnamese life is worth less than an American life.

Please quote me if I ever in one of my past posts voiced my objection to American intervention in Vietnam framed in moralizing terms .
cassowary wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:16 am
If so, then your position has improved. The US was not morally wrong for going to war in Vietnam. They were trying to do a good deed - to stop a murderous ideology from spreading. But they were strategically wrong to try because the war was unwinnable.
Murderous ideology? There is no such thing! There are only murderous individuals: some of whom may use ideology as an excuse for doing the devil's work (or more likely organize others to do it for them like the cowards such men usually are).

The US military were plenty murderous in Vietnam and they were not guided by socialism or any other ideology. That what armies are trained to do. The civilian politicians back in Washington DC who sent them the orders simply did not care, as long as they kept their hands clean.

Have you ever heard of Soviet dissident, the late Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn? Probably not, in which case your education is incomplete.

https://www.google.com/search?q=aleksan ... e&ie=UTF-8

He served time in the infamous GULAG system of forced labour prison camps as a political internee. He later also brought it to the World's attention in a book he wrote and had smuggled out to The west and had published called The Gulag Archipelago. Probably no one man contributed more towards bringing the USSR to an end than he. If anyone should know whether socialist ideology is inherently evil it is this man. Yet in the end he denied that good and evil have anything to do with ideology. His own words are:

"The battleline between good and evil runs through the heart of every man."

In future, please remember those words Cass and be wiser for it.

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Re: "It's an ill wind....."

Post by Doc » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:31 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:30 am
cassowary wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:16 am
The US was not morally wrong for going to war in Vietnam. They were trying to do a good deed - to stop a murderous ideology from spreading. But they were strategically wrong to try because the war was unwinnable.
So, what makes the US think that a war with Iran is winnable?... :?
What makes you think it isn't ?
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Re: "It's an ill wind....."

Post by cassowary » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:36 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:25 am
cassowary wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:16 am

So, you are now saying that you opposed the US involvement in Vietnam for pragmatic reasons and not because you believe it was morally wrong for the US to be involved? Your reason is that the war in Vietnam was unwinnable and thus a waste of American lives? Is that it?
I can do without that above patronizing tone of yours, Cassowary
Hahaha :lol: . You did say, sometime ago, that I was an imp.
Waste of American lives? Yes. But even more so a waste of even greater numbers of Vietnamese lives: just in case you are under the odd impression that a Vietnamese life is worth less than an American life.
The objective was to save Vietnamese lives. We all know by now the loss of lives that always accompany attempts to build Socialism/Communism.
Please quote me if I ever in one of my past posts voiced my objection to American intervention in Vietnam framed in moralizing terms .
You were always so negative and critical about the US intervention in Vietnam that it was unmistakable that you disapprove of US intervention. So I always replied that they were doing a noble thing by spending their blood and treasure to try stop the spread of Socialism/Communism. This was met with derision. You could have agreed that, yes, the Americans were trying to do a good deed but you did not.

It took me so long to pull that statement out of you (finally). I felt that it must have been easier to pull the teeth from the tiger's mouth than it is to get you to admit that the US intervention in Vietnam was a noble thing.
cassowary wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:16 am
If so, then your position has improved. The US was not morally wrong for going to war in Vietnam. They were trying to do a good deed - to stop a murderous ideology from spreading. But they were strategically wrong to try because the war was unwinnable.
Murderous ideology? There is no such thing! There are only murderous individuals: some of whom may use ideology as an excuse for doing the devil's work (or more likely organize others to do it for them like the cowards such men usually are).
What do you call an ideology that caused 95 million deaths (see the Black book of Communism) but a murderous ideology:

Image

You are responding like so many die hard Socialists. It is not the ideology's fault. It was the people who failed to implement it correctly. I don't agree. It was the ideology that caused so many deaths. Even if you find someone with the heart of Mother Theresa to run a Socialist system, you will still get many deaths - perhaps not as many but it will still be a lot. That's because Socialism goes against human nature. Thus compulsion is required to implement it.
The Imp :D

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Re: "It's an ill wind....."

Post by Sertorio » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:53 am

Doc wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:31 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:30 am
cassowary wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:16 am
The US was not morally wrong for going to war in Vietnam. They were trying to do a good deed - to stop a murderous ideology from spreading. But they were strategically wrong to try because the war was unwinnable.
So, what makes the US think that a war with Iran is winnable?... :?
What makes you think it isn't ?
The US couldn't win in Vietnam and couldn't win in Afghanistan. It surely would not win in Iran. In fact, the US can no longer win any wars. All it can do is killing scores of people, may of them civilians, but that does not lead to victory. And the US cannot win because its international relations are based on violence, bullying, disrespect of all other peoples and their values. Short of extermination, no people will ever accept being subdued by America, and they will keep fighting until the US goes away. That's what happened in Vietnam and Afghanistan, and would certainly happen in Iran.

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Re: "It's an ill wind....."

Post by neverfail » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:09 am

cassowary wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:36 am

The objective was to save Vietnamese lives....
But the consequence was that they unnecessarily destroyed far more Vietnamese lives. Once the US war machine gets into gear; like a Frankenstein monster let loose they never seem to care how many they kill.
cassowary wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:36 am
We all know by now the loss of lives that always accompany attempts to build Socialism/Communism.
In the case of Russia and China, do either of these have anything other than a blood soaked history over the many centuries before Communism came along? Do you have the false impression that political power in either had previously been about tender loving care? There must be a reason for that lamentable historical record. You have never needed socialism in those places to ensure a bloodbath.

In the case of Vietnam, all of the massive loss of life happened before, not after, the re-unification of the country and was due overwhelmingly because of the opposition to that unification by the World's most powerful war machine.

Always, you say? Vietnam says otherwise!
cassowary wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:36 am
You were always so negative and critical about the US intervention in Vietnam that it was unmistakable that you disapprove of US intervention.
Too right I disapprove. I am acutely aware of the highly destructive consequences that flowed (and still flow) from it.
............................................................................................................................................

By the way, our government of the day down here does not have a clean pair of hands in the matter either. Before the Johnson administration sent the first US combat troops into Vietnam out government of the day used its diplomatic leverage in Washington DC to entice the Americans to send their military into Vietnam. Which shows just how caring they were about the well being of the Vietnamese: given that some of the Ministers in that government were former WW2 veteran Australian Army officers who could not have been unaware of the indiscriminate legality of US military firepower given that some, if not all, would have seen it first hand during the fighting against the Japanese. It could seriously be claimed that the Americans were fighting a noble war then.

I can even forgive that government for their error of judgement. What I cannot and do not forgive is the deluge of lies they unleashed on us for years after as a face-saving PR cover-up for their policy error.

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Re: "It's an ill wind....."

Post by Doc » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:18 am

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:53 am
Doc wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:31 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:30 am
cassowary wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:16 am
The US was not morally wrong for going to war in Vietnam. They were trying to do a good deed - to stop a murderous ideology from spreading. But they were strategically wrong to try because the war was unwinnable.
So, what makes the US think that a war with Iran is winnable?... :?
What makes you think it isn't ?
The US couldn't win in Vietnam and couldn't win in Afghanistan. It surely would not win in Iran. In fact, the US can no longer win any wars. All it can do is killing scores of people, may of them civilians, but that does not lead to victory. And the US cannot win because its international relations are based on violence, bullying, disrespect of all other peoples and their values. Short of extermination, no people will ever accept being subdued by America, and they will keep fighting until the US goes away. That's what happened in Vietnam and Afghanistan, and would certainly happen in Iran.
Again what makes you think a US war against Iran isn't winnable?

This is illegal in Iran and comes with a heavy jail sentence where the woman often get raped by their guards







Any regime that outlaws fully clothed women from dancing but can't stop them, even with the threat of jail, is inherently weak. The Mullahs in IRan will go down once hit with a feather.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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