"It's an ill wind....."

Discussion of current events
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cassowary
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Re: "It's an ill wind....."

Post by cassowary » Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:03 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:01 pm
Chin Peng was perhaps the greatest of Malaysian patriots. He led the fight against the Japanese occupation, and then the fight against British occupation. Politics be damned. Malaysian authorities won't even allow his ashes to be returned from Thailand for interment in his beloved Malaya.
I agree. Chin Peng was a nationalist who loved his country. But he was also a Socialist/Communist. Chin and Ho Chi Minh were much alike. Both were Nationalists and Communists. Both fought the Japanese and later the returning European colonial power.

Neverfail is trying to convince us to ignore Ho’s Socialism/Communism in order to discredit US intervention in Vietnam.

He is saying, “Look. There was no need to fight in Vietnam. Let Ho win. He was a patriot trying to unify his country. The yanks got it wrong.”

He might have been a nationalist but he was also a Socialist/Communist. Once his regime was in power, millions died. Once Vietnam fell, so did Cambodia too.

Chin Peng was the same. He was both a nationalist and a Socialist/Communist. Strangely Neverfail does not seem to object to British and Commonwealth forces fighting to save Malaya and Singapore.

But he is vehement in his opposition to US involvement in Vietnam.

Both events were essentially the same.
The Imp :D

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Doc
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Re: "It's an ill wind....."

Post by Doc » Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:27 pm

cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:03 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:01 pm
Chin Peng was perhaps the greatest of Malaysian patriots. He led the fight against the Japanese occupation, and then the fight against British occupation. Politics be damned. Malaysian authorities won't even allow his ashes to be returned from Thailand for interment in his beloved Malaya.
I agree. Chin Peng was a nationalist who loved his country. But he was also a Socialist/Communist. Chin and Ho Chi Minh were much alike. Both were Nationalists and Communists. Both fought the Japanese and later the returning European colonial power.

Neverfail is trying to convince us to ignore Ho’s Socialism/Communism in order to discredit US intervention in Vietnam.

He is saying, “Look. There was no need to fight in Vietnam. Let Ho win. He was a patriot trying to unify his country. The yanks got it wrong.”

He might have been a nationalist but he was also a Socialist/Communist. Once his regime was in power, millions died. Once Vietnam fell, so did Cambodia too.

Chin Peng was the same. He was both a nationalist and a Socialist/Communist. Strangely Neverfail does not seem to object to British and Commonwealth forces fighting to save Malaya and Singapore.

But he is vehement in his opposition to US involvement in Vietnam.

Both events were essentially the same.
The difference with Veitnam is the British after WWII kept Ho from attaining power by using Japanese POWs to suppress independence in Vietnam. They did it in an effort to support colonialism
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

neverfail
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Re: "It's an ill wind....."

Post by neverfail » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:13 pm

Doc wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:27 pm
The difference with Veitnam is the British after WWII kept Ho from attaining power by using Japanese POWs to suppress independence in Vietnam. They did it in an effort to support colonialism
Succinctly put, doc.

It was a little more complex than that. Apparently a Nationalist Chinese army from across the border temporarily occupied what was destined to become North Vietnam while the British moved a detachment of soldiers into Saigon and the south on behalf of their old wartime allies, the French.

As a measure of the times: you are probably unaware that (as a consequence of wartime alliance and its payoff) that the British on behalf of the Dutch, should have moved troops into the Greater Sunda Islands of Indonesia to hold down the east Indies Empire for the return of the Dutch. It did not happen because the British lacked the soldiers to send there - too much on their plate elsewhere. So Lord Louis Mountbatten, the field marshal in charge of British forces in Asia, sent instructions to the Japanese commander in situ to continue the occupation on behalf of the allies.

The Japanese complied with the letter but not with the spirit of these instructions. I believe that quite a few Japanese garrisons did deals with Indonesian independence cells across Java: persuading the Japanese to surrender their guns and unused munitions to them in return for a safe passage to the coast for eventual return to Japan. Thus did the Indonesian nationalist forces acquire the first of the weaponry they needed for their coming armed struggle against the Dutch.

Australia was likewise caught up in a web of obligations to allies that carried over from the war. In the closing months in the war against the Japanese the Australian army moved from New Guinea into the eastern islands of Indonesia. The Australian External Affairs (i.e. foreign) Minister of the day, Dr H. V. Evatt would have liked to have moved Australian troops from those eastern islands into the Greater Sunda's where the seat of support for Indonesian independence was located (probably to strengthen Australia's bargaining position in shaping the new post-WW2 order). He could not persuade the government he belonged to to make the move because the Defense Minister had received word from his commander up there that should the order be sent the Australian soldiers would refuse to obey the order. When an army refuses to obey the orders sent by superior authority that is mutiny.

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cassowary
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Re: "It's an ill wind....."

Post by cassowary » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:07 pm

Doc wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:27 pm
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:03 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:01 pm
Chin Peng was perhaps the greatest of Malaysian patriots. He led the fight against the Japanese occupation, and then the fight against British occupation. Politics be damned. Malaysian authorities won't even allow his ashes to be returned from Thailand for interment in his beloved Malaya.
Yes
I agree. Chin Peng was a nationalist who loved his country. But he was also a Socialist/Communist. Chin and Ho Chi Minh were much alike. Both were Nationalists and Communists. Both fought the Japanese and later the returning European colonial power.

Neverfail is trying to convince us to ignore Ho’s Socialism/Communism in order to discredit US intervention in Vietnam.

He is saying, “Look. There was no need to fight in Vietnam. Let Ho win. He was a patriot trying to unify his country. The yanks got it wrong.”

He might have been a nationalist but he was also a Socialist/Communist. Once his regime was in power, millions died. Once Vietnam fell, so did Cambodia too.

Chin Peng was the same. He was both a nationalist and a Socialist/Communist. Strangely Neverfail does not seem to object to British and Commonwealth forces fighting to save Malaya and Singapore.

But he is vehement in his opposition to US involvement in Vietnam.

Both events were essentially the same.
The difference with Veitnam is the British after WWII kept Ho from attaining power by using Japanese POWs to suppress independence in Vietnam. They did it in an effort to support colonialism
Yes. There is a difference. But Chin and Ho were both nationalists and Communists. The fact that the British stopped Ho from taking power before the return of the French does not justify Neverfail ‘s position.

We were debating whether US involvement in Vietnam was honorable or not. He thinks not because he sees Ho as a nationalist and ignores his Socialism. Thus in his mind, there was no good reason for the US to fight a Vietnamese patriot trying to unify his country.

I pointed out that Chin Peng was also a nationalist. Yet Neverfail appears to support British and Commonwealth troops fighting in the Malayan Emergency. I was pointing out his inconsistency when both Ho and Chin were so much alike. Both were nationalist and Socialist.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: "It's an ill wind....."

Post by neverfail » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:18 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:07 pm

Yes. There is a difference. But Chin and Ho were both nationalists and Communists. The fact that the British stopped Ho from taking power before the return of the French does not justify Neverfail ‘s position.

We were debating whether US involvement in Vietnam was honorable or not. He thinks not because he sees Ho as a nationalist and ignores his Socialism. Thus in his mind, there was no good reason for the US to fight a Vietnamese patriot trying to unify his country.

I pointed out that Chin Peng was also a nationalist. Yet Neverfail appears to support British and Commonwealth troops fighting in the Malayan Emergency. I was pointing out his inconsistency when both Ho and Chin were so much alike. Both were nationalist and Socialist.
You still do not get it, do you Cass? Still preoccupied with trying to explain the world around you by attaching convenient ideological labels.

I am sure that Ho and Chin were both committed Marxists. But they lived in the midst of societies where the rising wave of public opinion was nationalist. That prevailing weight of mass expectation altered everything. A politician, even a Marxist one, has to work with the constituency he has and not wish for one more compliant with his ideals. Such is the art of politics.

By way of analogy: It stands to reason, does it not, that no matter how skillful the builder: if shit is the only material he has available to work with then the best he can hope to achieve is to construct a house of shit? :D

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Re: "It's an ill wind....."

Post by Jim the Moron » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:42 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:07 pm
Doc wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:27 pm
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:03 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:01 pm
Chin Peng was perhaps the greatest of Malaysian patriots. He led the fight against the Japanese occupation, and then the fight against British occupation. Politics be damned. Malaysian authorities won't even allow his ashes to be returned from Thailand for interment in his beloved Malaya.
Yes
I agree. Chin Peng was a nationalist who loved his country. But he was also a Socialist/Communist. Chin and Ho Chi Minh were much alike. Both were Nationalists and Communists. Both fought the Japanese and later the returning European colonial power.

Neverfail is trying to convince us to ignore Ho’s Socialism/Communism in order to discredit US intervention in Vietnam.

He is saying, “Look. There was no need to fight in Vietnam. Let Ho win. He was a patriot trying to unify his country. The yanks got it wrong.”

He might have been a nationalist but he was also a Socialist/Communist. Once his regime was in power, millions died. Once Vietnam fell, so did Cambodia too.

Chin Peng was the same. He was both a nationalist and a Socialist/Communist. Strangely Neverfail does not seem to object to British and Commonwealth forces fighting to save Malaya and Singapore.

But he is vehement in his opposition to US involvement in Vietnam.

Both events were essentially the same.
The difference with Veitnam is the British after WWII kept Ho from attaining power by using Japanese POWs to suppress independence in Vietnam. They did it in an effort to support colonialism
Yes. There is a difference. But Chin and Ho were both nationalists and Communists. The fact that the British stopped Ho from taking power before the return of the French does not justify Neverfail ‘s position.

We were debating whether US involvement in Vietnam was honorable or not. He thinks not because he sees Ho as a nationalist and ignores his Socialism. Thus in his mind, there was no good reason for the US to fight a Vietnamese patriot trying to unify his country.

I pointed out that Chin Peng was also a nationalist. Yet Neverfail appears to support British and Commonwealth troops fighting in the Malayan Emergency. I was pointing out his inconsistency when both Ho and Chin were so much alike. Both were nationalist and Socialist.

An interesting observation. Why among some folks is it OK to berate western efforts to put down nationalist interests in Vietnam, while praising western efforts to defeat nationalist interests in Malaysia? Never before have I heard it put that way.

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Doc
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Re: "It's an ill wind....."

Post by Doc » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:18 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:07 pm
Doc wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:27 pm
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:03 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:01 pm
Chin Peng was perhaps the greatest of Malaysian patriots. He led the fight against the Japanese occupation, and then the fight against British occupation. Politics be damned. Malaysian authorities won't even allow his ashes to be returned from Thailand for interment in his beloved Malaya.
Yes
I agree. Chin Peng was a nationalist who loved his country. But he was also a Socialist/Communist. Chin and Ho Chi Minh were much alike. Both were Nationalists and Communists. Both fought the Japanese and later the returning European colonial power.

Neverfail is trying to convince us to ignore Ho’s Socialism/Communism in order to discredit US intervention in Vietnam.

He is saying, “Look. There was no need to fight in Vietnam. Let Ho win. He was a patriot trying to unify his country. The yanks got it wrong.”

He might have been a nationalist but he was also a Socialist/Communist. Once his regime was in power, millions died. Once Vietnam fell, so did Cambodia too.

Chin Peng was the same. He was both a nationalist and a Socialist/Communist. Strangely Neverfail does not seem to object to British and Commonwealth forces fighting to save Malaya and Singapore.

But he is vehement in his opposition to US involvement in Vietnam.

Both events were essentially the same.
The difference with Veitnam is the British after WWII kept Ho from attaining power by using Japanese POWs to suppress independence in Vietnam. They did it in an effort to support colonialism
Yes. There is a difference. But Chin and Ho were both nationalists and Communists. The fact that the British stopped Ho from taking power before the return of the French does not justify Neverfail ‘s position.

We were debating whether US involvement in Vietnam was honorable or not. He thinks not because he sees Ho as a nationalist and ignores his Socialism. Thus in his mind, there was no good reason for the US to fight a Vietnamese patriot trying to unify his country.

I pointed out that Chin Peng was also a nationalist. Yet Neverfail appears to support British and Commonwealth troops fighting in the Malayan Emergency. I was pointing out his inconsistency when both Ho and Chin were so much alike. Both were nationalist and Socialist.
my point was about the domino theory. Ho was not making much progress after the French came back until China fell to Mao. Which meant he could get arms to fight the French. China --> Laos--> Cambodia --> Vietnam
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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cassowary
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The US fight to stop the plague of Socialism from spreading.

Post by cassowary » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:51 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:18 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:07 pm

Yes. There is a difference. But Chin and Ho were both nationalists and Communists. The fact that the British stopped Ho from taking power before the return of the French does not justify Neverfail ‘s position.

We were debating whether US involvement in Vietnam was honorable or not. He thinks not because he sees Ho as a nationalist and ignores his Socialism. Thus in his mind, there was no good reason for the US to fight a Vietnamese patriot trying to unify his country.

I pointed out that Chin Peng was also a nationalist. Yet Neverfail appears to support British and Commonwealth troops fighting in the Malayan Emergency. I was pointing out his inconsistency when both Ho and Chin were so much alike. Both were nationalist and Socialist.
You still do not get it, do you Cass? Still preoccupied with trying to explain the world around you by attaching convenient ideological labels.

I am sure that Ho and Chin were both committed Marxists. But they lived in the midst of societies where the rising wave of public opinion was nationalist. That prevailing weight of mass expectation altered everything. A politician, even a Marxist one, has to work with the constituency he has and not wish for one more compliant with his ideals. Such is the art of politics.

By way of analogy: It stands to reason, does it not, that no matter how skillful the builder: if shit is the only material he has available to work with then the best he can hope to achieve is to construct a house of shit? :D
Illiterate farm boys in Vietnam cannot understand the intricacies of Marxist dialectic materialism. But they understood Ho’s propaganda that they were fighting foreign imperialism, first Japanese, then French and later American. They were fooled just as anti war westerners were fooled into thinking they were just nationalists fighting a just cause.

But it did not matter what the Vietnamese youth believed they were fighting for. As soon as N Vietnam won, thanks to backstabbing leftists in the west, the N Vietnamese regime implemented Socialism with the expected disastrous result. Millions died. It was to prevent this plague from speeding that the US fought. Thus US actions was noble.
The Imp :D

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cassowary
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Re: "It's an ill wind....."

Post by cassowary » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:53 am

Doc wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:18 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:07 pm
Doc wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:27 pm
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:03 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:01 pm
Chin Peng was perhaps the greatest of Malaysian patriots. He led the fight against the Japanese occupation, and then the fight against British occupation. Politics be damned. Malaysian authorities won't even allow his ashes to be returned from Thailand for interment in his beloved Malaya.
Yes
I agree. Chin Peng was a nationalist who loved his country. But he was also a Socialist/Communist. Chin and Ho Chi Minh were much alike. Both were Nationalists and Communists. Both fought the Japanese and later the returning European colonial power.

Neverfail is trying to convince us to ignore Ho’s Socialism/Communism in order to discredit US intervention in Vietnam.

He is saying, “Look. There was no need to fight in Vietnam. Let Ho win. He was a patriot trying to unify his country. The yanks got it wrong.”

He might have been a nationalist but he was also a Socialist/Communist. Once his regime was in power, millions died. Once Vietnam fell, so did Cambodia too.

Chin Peng was the same. He was both a nationalist and a Socialist/Communist. Strangely Neverfail does not seem to object to British and Commonwealth forces fighting to save Malaya and Singapore.

But he is vehement in his opposition to US involvement in Vietnam.

Both events were essentially the same.
The difference with Veitnam is the British after WWII kept Ho from attaining power by using Japanese POWs to suppress independence in Vietnam. They did it in an effort to support colonialism
Yes. There is a difference. But Chin and Ho were both nationalists and Communists. The fact that the British stopped Ho from taking power before the return of the French does not justify Neverfail ‘s position.

We were debating whether US involvement in Vietnam was honorable or not. He thinks not because he sees Ho as a nationalist and ignores his Socialism. Thus in his mind, there was no good reason for the US to fight a Vietnamese patriot trying to unify his country.

I pointed out that Chin Peng was also a nationalist. Yet Neverfail appears to support British and Commonwealth troops fighting in the Malayan Emergency. I was pointing out his inconsistency when both Ho and Chin were so much alike. Both were nationalist and Socialist.
my point was about the domino theory. Ho was not making much progress after the French came back until China fell to Mao. Which meant he could get arms to fight the French. China --> Laos--> Cambodia --> Vietnam
I see.
The Imp :D

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Sertorio
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Re: "It's an ill wind....."

Post by Sertorio » Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:38 am

I suppose this thread will finish only when the victorious US army marches into Hanoi... :lol:

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