"War With Iran Would Be a Disaster"

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Sertorio
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Re: tit-for-tat oil tanker seizures.

Post by Sertorio » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:46 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:47 am

As for the Americans, are they not heirs to European civilization?
No. Ours is a Greek-Latin civilization, the US belongs to the so-called Judeo-Christian civilization. There isn't much in common between the two...We are humanists, Americans are mostly theocrats... There is more in common between Americans and the ayatollahs than between Americans and Europeans...

neverfail
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Re: tit-for-tat oil tanker seizures.

Post by neverfail » Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:33 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:50 am
neverfail wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:38 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... hip-latest

I suppose that the Iranian government will now negotiate with the UK on the basis that if you release that tanker of ours that you seized off Gibraltar and we will release your two that we seized in the Strait of Hormuz".

Iran chose an opportune time to do it. Had Maggie Thatcher still been Prime Minister of Britain Iran probably would not have dared. But with the UK currently weakly led and politically divided I don't believe that the UK would currently have the political will to do anything drastic.
Iran is militarily much stronger than Argentine. Thatcher wasn't stupid, and she would have understood that the UK could not defeat Iran in its own backyard. The only drastic thing the UK can do is release the Grace 1 tanker... ;)
Well judged Sertorio. Britain lacks the logistical means to sustain such a response.

As for Grace 1: it was allegedly a sanctions buster - unlike the seized British tanker the Iranians hijacked in retaliation. Were I in the shoes of the British I would release the Grace 1 only on condition that it desists from travelling to Syria and returns to Iran along the course that it traveled from there (i.e. around Africa).

neverfail
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Re: tit-for-tat oil tanker seizures.

Post by neverfail » Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:37 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:46 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:47 am

As for the Americans, are they not heirs to European civilization?
No. Ours is a Greek-Latin civilization, the US belongs to the so-called Judeo-Christian civilization. There isn't much in common between the two...We are humanists, Americans are mostly theocrats... There is more in common between Americans and the ayatollahs than between Americans and Europeans...
Yours is not! As Alexis was once at pains to point out to me: neither Ancient Greece nor the Roman Empire were truly European but rather were Mediterranean in character and orientation. Modern Europe and the European identity grew out of the Gothic civilization of the Middle Ages.

Since this Gothic civilization of the Middle Ages was a Christian civilization (known at the time as Christendom rather than Europe: presided over by and operating within the structure of what we now refer to as The Catholic Church) it stands to reason that the allegedly Judeo-Christian flavor of the US is very much an offspring of "European" civilization.
Last edited by neverfail on Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sertorio
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Re: tit-for-tat oil tanker seizures.

Post by Sertorio » Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:39 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:33 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:50 am
neverfail wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:38 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... hip-latest

I suppose that the Iranian government will now negotiate with the UK on the basis that if you release that tanker of ours that you seized off Gibraltar and we will release your two that we seized in the Strait of Hormuz".

Iran chose an opportune time to do it. Had Maggie Thatcher still been Prime Minister of Britain Iran probably would not have dared. But with the UK currently weakly led and politically divided I don't believe that the UK would currently have the political will to do anything drastic.
Iran is militarily much stronger than Argentine. Thatcher wasn't stupid, and she would have understood that the UK could not defeat Iran in its own backyard. The only drastic thing the UK can do is release the Grace 1 tanker... ;)
Well judged Sertorio. Britain lacks the logistical means to sustain such a response.

As for Grace 1: it was allegedly a sanctions buster - unlike the seized British tanker the Iranians hijacked in retaliation. Were I in the shoes of the British I would release the Grace 1 only on condition that it desists from travelling to Syria and returns to Iran along the course that it traveled from there (i.e. around Africa).
And why are some people trying to deny Syrians access to oil? Is it because they didn't obey US instructions on the gas pipeline from Qatar?...

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Sertorio
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Re: tit-for-tat oil tanker seizures.

Post by Sertorio » Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:48 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:37 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:46 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:47 am

As for the Americans, are they not heirs to European civilization?
No. Ours is a Greek-Latin civilization, the US belongs to the so-called Judeo-Christian civilization. There isn't much in common between the two...We are humanists, Americans are mostly theocrats... There is more in common between Americans and the ayatollahs than between Americans and Europeans...
Yours is not! As Alexis was once at pains to point out to me: neither Ancient Greece nor the Roman Empire were truly European but rather were Mediterranean in character and orientation. Modern Europe and the European identity grew out of the Gothic civilization of the Middle Ages.
Well, I am from the Mediterranean Europe, the only true Europe...The Goths (no Gothic civilization that I am aware of...) only brought to Europe their lust for war. The Renaissance was all Mediterranean. True, the Goths became good at trading and at industrializing the economy. But those are tricks that can be learned (and have been learned) by the Mediterranean peoples. The rest, the arts, the culture, the philosophy, remains very much a Mediterranean thing... Americans are indeed the heirs to those Goths, not to the Greek and Latin civilization. And that's why brute force is the language of the vast majority of Americans.

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cassowary
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Re: tit-for-tat oil tanker seizures.

Post by cassowary » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:41 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:46 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:47 am

As for the Americans, are they not heirs to European civilization?
No. Ours is a Greek-Latin civilization, the US belongs to the so-called Judeo-Christian civilization. There isn't much in common between the two...We are humanists, Americans are mostly theocrats... There is more in common between Americans and the ayatollahs than between Americans and Europeans...
I don't agree with that. Both Americans and Europeans have their cultures rooted in both Athens and Jerusalem. I know you leftists have been hard at work to eradicate the Judaeo-Christian heritage. But it still exists.

For example, the respect of human life comes from Judaeo-Christian religious beliefs. We are created in the image of God. So we are special and our lives have value. Look at Roman and Greek civilization. Infanticide was widely practiced. When a child is born in a pagan Roman family, the baby is laid at the feet of the father. He then decides either to raise the child or abandoned it.
Roman law, religion and the entire ethos of the ancient world saw nothing morally wrong with infanticide or with abandoning their newborns on the dung heaps or garbage dumps of cities.
Do you Europeans do that today? If you don't, it is because of your Judaeo Christian heritage.

Of course, leftists are hard at work to get rid of your Christian heritage. Democrats like Virginia governor, Northam wants to legalize infanticide.
"The infant would be delivered, the infant would be kept comfortable, the infant would be resuscitated if that's what the mother and the family desired. And then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother."
... who will then decide if the baby lives or die. That's his unspoken meaning.

Like you and most leftists, he does not like Judaeo Christian values. So he thinks they don't apply to them. You belong to a very leftist part of Europe that rejects the Judaeo Christian heritage. For you, America is still too Christian. That is why you say that European civilization is based on the classical Greco-Roman civilization. If you get your way, it means human life is again of no value as in pagan times of ancient Greece and Rome. That explains why leftists like Hitler and Stalin murdered millions.

I guess you guys will bring back the coliseum next when gladiators kill each other for the entertainment of the crowd.

Saint Telemachus
Saint Telemachus (also Almachus[1] or Almachius) was a monk who, according to the Church historian Theodoret,[2] tried to stop a gladiatorial fight in a Roman amphitheatre, and was stoned to death by the crowd. The Christian Emperor Honorius, however, was impressed by the monk's martyrdom and it spurred him to issue a historic ban on gladiatorial fights. Frederick George Holweck gives the year of his death as 391. [3] The last known gladiatorial fight in Rome was on 1 January 404 AD.
It is because of Christianity that barbarism died and human life had value. The left wants to lower the value of human life. Think of the leftist atrocities - Auschwitz, the Gulags and the Killing Fields.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: tit-for-tat oil tanker seizures.

Post by neverfail » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:33 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:48 pm


Well, I am from the Mediterranean Europe, the only true Europe...The Goths (no Gothic civilization that I am aware of...) only brought to Europe their lust for war. The Renaissance was all Mediterranean. True, the Goths became good at trading and at industrializing the economy. But those are tricks that can be learned (and have been learned) by the Mediterranean peoples. The rest, the arts, the culture, the philosophy, remains very much a Mediterranean thing... Americans are indeed the heirs to those Goths, not to the Greek and Latin civilization. And that's why brute force is the language of the vast majority of Americans.
Twaddle! Rome fell to the Goths not because the Goths were all that strong but because Roman polity was rotten to the core. A decadent order crying out to be replaced by something better. If after centuries of decay and conquest by others Italy, Spain and even Portugal jointly led the rest of Europe into the Renaisscense then arguably the invading Germanic people's brought a new energy (not to mention much needed integrity) into the otherwise decayed Latin disorder.

Why did Portugal evolve into a separate nation to Spain? Well, go back to the century following the collapse of the Western Roman empire. Iberia was invaded and settled by an alliance parnership between the Visigoths (the greater partner) and the Alan's (the lesser partner). Whilst Spain was settled by the former modern Portugal occupies the approx. terestial space awarded to the Alan's for services rendered.

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Sertorio
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Re: tit-for-tat oil tanker seizures.

Post by Sertorio » Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:33 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:41 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:46 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:47 am

As for the Americans, are they not heirs to European civilization?
No. Ours is a Greek-Latin civilization, the US belongs to the so-called Judeo-Christian civilization. There isn't much in common between the two...We are humanists, Americans are mostly theocrats... There is more in common between Americans and the ayatollahs than between Americans and Europeans...
I don't agree with that. Both Americans and Europeans have their cultures rooted in both Athens and Jerusalem. I know you leftists have been hard at work to eradicate the Judaeo-Christian heritage. But it still exists.

For example, the respect of human life comes from Judaeo-Christian religious beliefs. We are created in the image of God. So we are special and our lives have value. Look at Roman and Greek civilization. Infanticide was widely practiced. When a child is born in a pagan Roman family, the baby is laid at the feet of the father. He then decides either to raise the child or abandoned it.
Roman law, religion and the entire ethos of the ancient world saw nothing morally wrong with infanticide or with abandoning their newborns on the dung heaps or garbage dumps of cities.
Do you Europeans do that today? If you don't, it is because of your Judaeo Christian heritage.

Of course, leftists are hard at work to get rid of your Christian heritage. Democrats like Virginia governor, Northam wants to legalize infanticide.
"The infant would be delivered, the infant would be kept comfortable, the infant would be resuscitated if that's what the mother and the family desired. And then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother."
... who will then decide if the baby lives or die. That's his unspoken meaning.

Like you and most leftists, he does not like Judaeo Christian values. So he thinks they don't apply to them. You belong to a very leftist part of Europe that rejects the Judaeo Christian heritage. For you, America is still too Christian. That is why you say that European civilization is based on the classical Greco-Roman civilization. If you get your way, it means human life is again of no value as in pagan times of ancient Greece and Rome. That explains why leftists like Hitler and Stalin murdered millions.

I guess you guys will bring back the coliseum next when gladiators kill each other for the entertainment of the crowd.

Saint Telemachus
Saint Telemachus (also Almachus[1] or Almachius) was a monk who, according to the Church historian Theodoret,[2] tried to stop a gladiatorial fight in a Roman amphitheatre, and was stoned to death by the crowd. The Christian Emperor Honorius, however, was impressed by the monk's martyrdom and it spurred him to issue a historic ban on gladiatorial fights. Frederick George Holweck gives the year of his death as 391. [3] The last known gladiatorial fight in Rome was on 1 January 404 AD.
It is because of Christianity that barbarism died and human life had value. The left wants to lower the value of human life. Think of the leftist atrocities - Auschwitz, the Gulags and the Killing Fields.
Cass,

You seem to be ignoring stoicism and its importance. Much before Christ was born the ancient Greeks were following a path twards greater ethics and respect for all Nature, including human beings. Christianity just reinforced that movement.
Stoicism is a school of Hellenistic philosophy founded by Zeno of Citium in Athens in the early 3rd century BC. Stoicism is a philosophy of personal ethics informed by its system of logic and its views on the natural world. According to its teachings, as social beings, the path to eudaimonia (happiness) for humans is found in accepting the moment as it presents itself, by not allowing oneself to be controlled by the desire for pleasure or fear of pain, by using one's mind to understand the world and to do one's part in nature's plan, and by working together and treating others fairly and justly.

The Stoics are especially known for teaching that "virtue is the only good" for human beings, and that external things—such as health, wealth, and pleasure—are not good or bad in themselves (adiaphora), but have value as "material for virtue to act upon". Alongside Aristotelian ethics, the Stoic tradition forms one of the major founding approaches to Western virtue ethics. The Stoics also held that certain destructive emotions resulted from errors of judgment, and they believed people should aim to maintain a will (called prohairesis) that is "in accord with nature". Because of this, the Stoics thought the best indication of an individual's philosophy was not what a person said, but how a person behaved. To live a good life, one had to understand the rules of the natural order since they thought everything was rooted in nature.

Many Stoics—such as Seneca and Epictetus—emphasized that because "virtue is sufficient for happiness", a sage would be emotionally resilient to misfortune. This belief is similar to the meaning of the phrase "stoic calm", though the phrase does not include the "radical ethical" Stoic views that only a sage can be considered truly free, and that all moral corruptions are equally vicious.

Stoicism flourished throughout the Roman and Greek world until the 3rd century AD, and among its adherents was Emperor Marcus Aurelius. It experienced a decline after Christianity became the state religion in the 4th century AD. Since then it has seen revivals, notably in the Renaissance (Neostoicism) and in the contemporary era (modern Stoicism).

(...)

The Stoics provided a unified account of the world, consisting of formal logic, monistic physics and naturalistic ethics. Of these, they emphasized ethics as the main focus of human knowledge, though their logical theories were of more interest for later philosophers.

Stoicism teaches the development of self-control and fortitude as a means of overcoming destructive emotions; the philosophy holds that becoming a clear and unbiased thinker allows one to understand the universal reason (logos). A primary aspect of Stoicism involves improving the individual's ethical and moral well-being: "Virtue consists in a will that is in agreement with Nature." This principle also applies to the realm of interpersonal relationships; "to be free from anger, envy, and jealousy," and to accept even slaves as "equals of other men, because all men alike are products of nature"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism
Greek-Latin civilization is the basis of Europe's civilization, but not of the American culture. And we see that every day.

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Sertorio
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Re: tit-for-tat oil tanker seizures.

Post by Sertorio » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:19 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:33 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:48 pm


Well, I am from the Mediterranean Europe, the only true Europe...The Goths (no Gothic civilization that I am aware of...) only brought to Europe their lust for war. The Renaissance was all Mediterranean. True, the Goths became good at trading and at industrializing the economy. But those are tricks that can be learned (and have been learned) by the Mediterranean peoples. The rest, the arts, the culture, the philosophy, remains very much a Mediterranean thing... Americans are indeed the heirs to those Goths, not to the Greek and Latin civilization. And that's why brute force is the language of the vast majority of Americans.
Twaddle! Rome fell to the Goths not because the Goths were all that strong but because Roman polity was rotten to the core. A decadent order crying out to be replaced by something better. If after centuries of decay and conquest by others Italy, Spain and even Portugal jointly led the rest of Europe into the Renaisscense then arguably the invading Germanic people's brought a new energy (not to mention much needed integrity) into the otherwise decayed Latin disorder.

Why did Portugal evolve into a separate nation to Spain? Well, go back to the century following the collapse of the Western Roman empire. Iberia was invaded and settled by an alliance parnership between the Visigoths (the greater partner) and the Alan's (the lesser partner). Whilst Spain was settled by the former modern Portugal occupies the approx. terestial space awarded to the Alan's for services rendered.
It is true that Roman decadence contributed to its downfall at the hands of the Goths, but as far as civilization is concerned, the Goths contributed very little to Greek-Latin Europe. In the South they were quickly latinized and left very few words of Germanic origin. That's the case in Portugal, where words of Arab origin are much more numerous than words of Gothic origin. In spite of the Suebi representing, in the northwest of the Iberian Peninsula, close to half the total population. Visigoths were much fewer. By the way, the Alans originated from present day Iran, and left little mark in Portugal.

As to the separation between Portugal and Spain, it has recently been shown that about two thirds of present day border was already established by the Romans, based on natural features such as rivers and mountains. The presence of the Goths hardly contributed to the separation.

Europe is at least 80% the product of Greek-Latin civilization. Peoples of Gothic origin contributed to modern technology, to economic growth, and that's about it. And let's not forget that the latest Gothic contribution to Europe's "civilization" was nazism...

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Milo
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Re: tit-for-tat oil tanker seizures.

Post by Milo » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:13 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:19 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:33 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:48 pm


Well, I am from the Mediterranean Europe, the only true Europe...The Goths (no Gothic civilization that I am aware of...) only brought to Europe their lust for war. The Renaissance was all Mediterranean. True, the Goths became good at trading and at industrializing the economy. But those are tricks that can be learned (and have been learned) by the Mediterranean peoples. The rest, the arts, the culture, the philosophy, remains very much a Mediterranean thing... Americans are indeed the heirs to those Goths, not to the Greek and Latin civilization. And that's why brute force is the language of the vast majority of Americans.
Twaddle! Rome fell to the Goths not because the Goths were all that strong but because Roman polity was rotten to the core. A decadent order crying out to be replaced by something better. If after centuries of decay and conquest by others Italy, Spain and even Portugal jointly led the rest of Europe into the Renaisscense then arguably the invading Germanic people's brought a new energy (not to mention much needed integrity) into the otherwise decayed Latin disorder.

Why did Portugal evolve into a separate nation to Spain? Well, go back to the century following the collapse of the Western Roman empire. Iberia was invaded and settled by an alliance parnership between the Visigoths (the greater partner) and the Alan's (the lesser partner). Whilst Spain was settled by the former modern Portugal occupies the approx. terestial space awarded to the Alan's for services rendered.
It is true that Roman decadence contributed to its downfall at the hands of the Goths, but as far as civilization is concerned, the Goths contributed very little to Greek-Latin Europe. In the South they were quickly latinized and left very few words of Germanic origin. That's the case in Portugal, where words of Arab origin are much more numerous than words of Gothic origin. In spite of the Suebi representing, in the northwest of the Iberian Peninsula, close to half the total population. Visigoths were much fewer. By the way, the Alans originated from present day Iran, and left little mark in Portugal.

As to the separation between Portugal and Spain, it has recently been shown that about two thirds of present day border was already established by the Romans, based on natural features such as rivers and mountains. The presence of the Goths hardly contributed to the separation.

Europe is at least 80% the product of Greek-Latin civilization. Peoples of Gothic origin contributed to modern technology, to economic growth, and that's about it. And let's not forget that the latest Gothic contribution to Europe's "civilization" was nazism...
Nazis copied the Italian Fascists.

How does that fit in with your little fantasy?

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