Venezuela, The Revolution Begins

Discussion of current events
neverfail
Posts: 2196
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: in Venezuela, WHAT Revolution? They only have ongoing tradition down there.

Post by neverfail » Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:57 am

cassowary wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:52 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:50 pm


(quote) From each according to his ability; to each according to his needs. - words of Karl Marx - generally considered the grandfather of socialism.

Human abilities differ, often considerably, from one individual to another as do needs.

It follows from that, therefore, that Marx sanctioned inequality.
No, Neverfail. It's the reverse. Marx was saying that those with more abilities (and hence make more money) must contribute to satisfying the needs of those with lesser abilities.

Some people are born physically and/or mentally disabled. Others become that way through unforseen misfortune later in life. So you are saying that no one should care for these people but rather your dog-eat-dog capitalist dystopia should ensure that these and other misfortunates should be permanently penalised with poverty, misery and neglect because they cannot compete in the market economy with the ruthless, amoral and uncaring "highly capable".

Cassowary; will you finally pull your head out of your bum and try to use your limited imagination to place yourself in their shoes? Would you not want others of greater ability than yourself to care for YOUR needs?

Your moral callousness arouses my rage!
..........................................................

Cassowary: what leads you to the false supposition that all people on this earth endowed with higher ability necessarily devote themselves to a lifetime of making money?
.................................................................

If it takes a bit of mandatory redistribution of wealth (in your books, a finite dose of Marxist policy) to compel the greedy to surrender some of their ill gotten gains to enable the needy to live with dignity, then I put it that it is NOT robbery but simple natural justice. It is how society should function.

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cassowary
Posts: 2053
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:30 pm

Re: in Venezuela, WHAT Revolution? They only have ongoing tradition down there.

Post by cassowary » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:41 am

Doc wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:01 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:38 am
neverfail wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:38 am
cassowary wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:18 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:59 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:32 pm
. I did not blame Socialism for corruption.
Then why do you keep on harping on the matter of Chavez' daughter's billions?
Because Socialists claim to be for equality of wealth and for the poor. This makes leftist wealth accumulation more hypocritical and egregious. At the end of the day, politicians want power, money and girls. My grandma was right.
Well, he only gave his daughter a helping hand. No accusation has surfaced about Chavez doing it for himself.

Duty to family is I believe is a big thing in Latin America as it is throughout the third world. Would his countrymen have held him in greater esteem if Chavez had neglected to provide for members of his own family. Given their sort of culture I do not believe so!

Hypocritical and egregious? Where do you get the funny impression from that socialism means equality of wealth?
Let me rephrase what I said earlier to make it clearer.

No, Neverfail. It's the reverse. Marx was saying that those with more abilities (and hence make more money) must contribute to satisfying the needs of those with lesser abilities. That requires wealth redistribution. This means robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Very soon, Paul will not bother to work. Neither will Peter because his sweat is not going to benefit him or his family. That is why Socialism fails every time.

The capitalist creed will sound something like this:

"To each according to his ability. From no other but oneself shall satisfy the needs of each. "
Actually Peter would immigrate to the US rather than stay and fight in Venezuela. The problem with Socialist states in South American is too many international borders.
Their loss is your gain. The best and brightest Peters will migrate to the US with their skills and money. They will create wealth in the US. The Pauls will be left behind in Venezuela to suffer. It serves them right. They tried to rob others by voting in Chavez and ended up poorer for it. As you sow, so shall you reap.

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cassowary
Posts: 2053
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:30 pm

Re: in Venezuela, WHAT Revolution? They only have ongoing tradition down there.

Post by cassowary » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:20 am

neverfail wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:57 am
cassowary wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:52 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:50 pm


(quote) From each according to his ability; to each according to his needs. - words of Karl Marx - generally considered the grandfather of socialism.

Human abilities differ, often considerably, from one individual to another as do needs.

It follows from that, therefore, that Marx sanctioned inequality.
No, Neverfail. It's the reverse. Marx was saying that those with more abilities (and hence make more money) must contribute to satisfying the needs of those with lesser abilities.

Some people are born physically and/or mentally disabled. Others become that way through unforseen misfortune later in life. So you are saying that no one should care for these people but rather your dog-eat-dog capitalist dystopia should ensure that these and other misfortunates should be permanently penalised with poverty, misery and neglect because they cannot compete in the market economy with the ruthless, amoral and uncaring "highly capable".

Cassowary; will you finally pull your head out of your bum and try to use your limited imagination to place yourself in their shoes? Would you not want others of greater ability than yourself to care for YOUR needs?

Your moral callousness arouses my rage!
..........................................................

Cassowary: what leads you to the false supposition that all people on this earth endowed with higher ability necessarily devote themselves to a lifetime of making money?
.................................................................

If it takes a bit of mandatory redistribution of wealth (in your books, a finite dose of Marxist policy) to compel the greedy to surrender some of their ill gotten gains to enable the needy to live with dignity, then I put it that it is NOT robbery but simple natural justice. It is how society should function.
If they are born blind or become disabled in an accident and cannot work, I am for helping with taxpayers' money. But they should still do what they can, even if disabled.

What ill-gotten gains? The gains are usually as a result of hard work and entrepreneurial risk-taking. It is unjust for someone to use their vote to rob these people by voting in Socialist politicians who at the end of the day simply want power, money, and girls. They are the greedy ones who, like Chavez and Mugabe pretend to care for the poor.

My main objection to redistribution of wealth is that it ends up making all poorer. It does not work to help the poor. Learn from Benjamin Franklin:
“I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”

neverfail
Posts: 2196
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: in Venezuela, WHAT Revolution? They only have ongoing tradition down there.

Post by neverfail » Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:42 pm

Thanks for your dignified and reasoned reply Cass. I concede that when I last posted I was in a shitty mood.
cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:20 am


If they are born blind or become disabled in an accident and cannot work, I am for helping with taxpayers' money. But they should still do what they can, even if disabled.
Good! When given half an opportunity to do so most of them do. The challenge lies in providing the opportunity.

But being born blind or otherwise disabled is but one among a kaleidoscope of examples of disability and maladjustment as to why the majority of people in any given society cannot and do not thrive in a social environment of undisciplined competitiveness.
cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:20 am
My main objection to redistribution of wealth is that it ends up making all poorer.
Benjamin Franklin, a man of his own day and not of ours is entitled to his opinion but that does not mean his thoughts on the matter need to be (figuratively) engraved in polished granite in gold lettering as though a revealed, universal truth. I disagree with that observation but only because in practice it is not universally true at all. it depends on what you define as "wealth" and on (above all) how the redistribution is handled.

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cassowary
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:30 pm

Re: in Venezuela, WHAT Revolution? They only have ongoing tradition down there.

Post by cassowary » Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:19 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:42 pm
Thanks for your dignified and reasoned reply Cass. I concede that when I last posted I was in a shitty mood.
cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:20 am


If they are born blind or become disabled in an accident and cannot work, I am for helping with taxpayers' money. But they should still do what they can, even if disabled.
Good! When given half an opportunity to do so most of them do. The challenge lies in providing the opportunity.

But being born blind or otherwise disabled is but one among a kaleidoscope of examples of disability and maladjustment as to why the majority of people in any given society cannot and do not thrive in a social environment of undisciplined competitiveness.
cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:20 am
My main objection to redistribution of wealth is that it ends up making all poorer.
Benjamin Franklin, a man of his own day and not of ours is entitled to his opinion but that does not mean his thoughts on the matter need to be (figuratively) engraved in polished granite in gold lettering as though a revealed, universal truth. I disagree with that observation but only because in practice it is not universally true at all. it depends on what you define as "wealth" and on (above all) how the redistribution is handled.
I think human nature does not change. So Franklin's observation still applies.

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Sertorio
Posts: 1561
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: in Venezuela, WHAT Revolution? They only have ongoing tradition down there.

Post by Sertorio » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:55 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:19 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:42 pm
Thanks for your dignified and reasoned reply Cass. I concede that when I last posted I was in a shitty mood.
cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:20 am


If they are born blind or become disabled in an accident and cannot work, I am for helping with taxpayers' money. But they should still do what they can, even if disabled.
Good! When given half an opportunity to do so most of them do. The challenge lies in providing the opportunity.

But being born blind or otherwise disabled is but one among a kaleidoscope of examples of disability and maladjustment as to why the majority of people in any given society cannot and do not thrive in a social environment of undisciplined competitiveness.
cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:20 am
My main objection to redistribution of wealth is that it ends up making all poorer.
Benjamin Franklin, a man of his own day and not of ours is entitled to his opinion but that does not mean his thoughts on the matter need to be (figuratively) engraved in polished granite in gold lettering as though a revealed, universal truth. I disagree with that observation but only because in practice it is not universally true at all. it depends on what you define as "wealth" and on (above all) how the redistribution is handled.
I think human nature does not change. So Franklin's observation still applies.
Cass,
Save your breath. Venezuela, China and Russia don't know you exist, and they will keep doing what they feel is better for their peoples...

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cassowary
Posts: 2053
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:30 pm

Re: in Venezuela, WHAT Revolution? They only have ongoing tradition down there.

Post by cassowary » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:57 am

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:55 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:19 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:42 pm
Thanks for your dignified and reasoned reply Cass. I concede that when I last posted I was in a shitty mood.
cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:20 am


If they are born blind or become disabled in an accident and cannot work, I am for helping with taxpayers' money. But they should still do what they can, even if disabled.
Good! When given half an opportunity to do so most of them do. The challenge lies in providing the opportunity.

But being born blind or otherwise disabled is but one among a kaleidoscope of examples of disability and maladjustment as to why the majority of people in any given society cannot and do not thrive in a social environment of undisciplined competitiveness.
cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:20 am
My main objection to redistribution of wealth is that it ends up making all poorer.
Benjamin Franklin, a man of his own day and not of ours is entitled to his opinion but that does not mean his thoughts on the matter need to be (figuratively) engraved in polished granite in gold lettering as though a revealed, universal truth. I disagree with that observation but only because in practice it is not universally true at all. it depends on what you define as "wealth" and on (above all) how the redistribution is handled.
I think human nature does not change. So Franklin's observation still applies.
Cass,
Save your breath. Venezuela, China and Russia don't know you exist, and they will keep doing what they feel is better for their peoples...
??? We were not talking about Venezuela, China and Russia. We were discussing Socialism.

neverfail
Posts: 2196
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: in Venezuela, WHAT Revolution? They only have ongoing tradition down there.

Post by neverfail » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:04 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:19 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:42 pm
Thanks for your dignified and reasoned reply Cass. I concede that when I last posted I was in a shitty mood.
cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:20 am


If they are born blind or become disabled in an accident and cannot work, I am for helping with taxpayers' money. But they should still do what they can, even if disabled.
Good! When given half an opportunity to do so most of them do. The challenge lies in providing the opportunity.

But being born blind or otherwise disabled is but one among a kaleidoscope of examples of disability and maladjustment as to why the majority of people in any given society cannot and do not thrive in a social environment of undisciplined competitiveness.
cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:20 am
My main objection to redistribution of wealth is that it ends up making all poorer.
Benjamin Franklin, a man of his own day and not of ours is entitled to his opinion but that does not mean his thoughts on the matter need to be (figuratively) engraved in polished granite in gold lettering as though a revealed, universal truth. I disagree with that observation but only because in practice it is not universally true at all. it depends on what you define as "wealth" and on (above all) how the redistribution is handled.
I think human nature does not change. So Franklin's observation still applies.
Who said that Franklin's rumination was right even in his time?

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Doc
Posts: 1858
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:09 pm
Location: Cradle To Grave

Re: in Venezuela, WHAT Revolution? They only have ongoing tradition down there.

Post by Doc » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:28 am

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:55 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:19 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:42 pm
Thanks for your dignified and reasoned reply Cass. I concede that when I last posted I was in a shitty mood.
cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:20 am


If they are born blind or become disabled in an accident and cannot work, I am for helping with taxpayers' money. But they should still do what they can, even if disabled.
Good! When given half an opportunity to do so most of them do. The challenge lies in providing the opportunity.

But being born blind or otherwise disabled is but one among a kaleidoscope of examples of disability and maladjustment as to why the majority of people in any given society cannot and do not thrive in a social environment of undisciplined competitiveness.
cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:20 am
My main objection to redistribution of wealth is that it ends up making all poorer.
Benjamin Franklin, a man of his own day and not of ours is entitled to his opinion but that does not mean his thoughts on the matter need to be (figuratively) engraved in polished granite in gold lettering as though a revealed, universal truth. I disagree with that observation but only because in practice it is not universally true at all. it depends on what you define as "wealth" and on (above all) how the redistribution is handled.
I think human nature does not change. So Franklin's observation still applies.
Cass,
Save your breath. Venezuela, [deleted] don't know you exist, and they will keep doing what they feel is better for their peoples...
Their people being members of the party. You are correct People that aren't they don't listen to.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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cassowary
Posts: 2053
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:30 pm

Re: in Venezuela, WHAT Revolution? They only have ongoing tradition down there.

Post by cassowary » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:02 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:04 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:19 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:42 pm
Thanks for your dignified and reasoned reply Cass. I concede that when I last posted I was in a shitty mood.
cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:20 am


If they are born blind or become disabled in an accident and cannot work, I am for helping with taxpayers' money. But they should still do what they can, even if disabled.
Good! When given half an opportunity to do so most of them do. The challenge lies in providing the opportunity.

But being born blind or otherwise disabled is but one among a kaleidoscope of examples of disability and maladjustment as to why the majority of people in any given society cannot and do not thrive in a social environment of undisciplined competitiveness.
cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:20 am
My main objection to redistribution of wealth is that it ends up making all poorer.
Benjamin Franklin, a man of his own day and not of ours is entitled to his opinion but that does not mean his thoughts on the matter need to be (figuratively) engraved in polished granite in gold lettering as though a revealed, universal truth. I disagree with that observation but only because in practice it is not universally true at all. it depends on what you define as "wealth" and on (above all) how the redistribution is handled.
I think human nature does not change. So Franklin's observation still applies.
Who said that Franklin's rumination was right even in his time?
I, for one, do.

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