Pope Francis and the Economy

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Milo
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Re: Pope Francis and the Economy

Post by Milo » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:31 pm

I cannot think of a single thing the RCC has changed since Protestantism began, except for providing services in the vernacular, and that took till 1962!

As to whether the RCC can do more for the poor:


neverfail
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Re: Pope Francis and the Economy

Post by neverfail » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:40 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:35 am
Pope Francis... he's the one living in a tax-free compound, surrounded by gold and guns,.....
neverfail wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:37 pm
It goes with the patch of turf. Unavoidable!

Tax free? He has no private income so what is there to tax?

Gold? What gives you that idea? No private wealth either.
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:17 pm
Oh, please. High level Vatican officials live like royalty and are surrounded by splendour and you know it.
Have you actually been there to see for yourself?

The splendor of the interior decor of the Vatican (which I have seen some of, by the way) is inherited from past ages when indeed Popes and even cardinals saw nothing wrong with living like kings . Like it or lump it they are stuck with it as custodians of a priceless piece of world heritage.[/quote]
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:45 pm
Yes, I'm sure when Jesus said “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me” that He just forgot to add, "...unless you're a Prince of the Church in which case it's perfectly okay to ignore that bit and live like a king."
Please cease selectively quoting scripture at me as even the devil can do that. I do not apologise for the fact that the Catholic Church as it has evolved over the past 2,000 years has been a creature of its times and the society in which it has had to operate. When Christendom had a feudal social structure the Church was feudal also.

Tradition dies hard; especially in an institution as ancient as this one.

neverfail wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:10 pm
Guns? Of course he has a security detail and he needs one. Popes in the past have been assassinated. Within living memory an attempt was even made on the life of Pope John Paul the Second.
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:17 pm
And I don't fault him for having security, but I do fault him for the glaring hypocrisy of calling for the disarmament of poor people whose lives may also be under threat from violence.
neverfail wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:10 pm
In the whole of the content of the link provided by Sertorio (in which Pope Francis makes his plea to the World) I saw no call for the disarmament of poor people whose lives may be under threat from violence.

In any case poor people as a rule are not owners of firearms and cannot afford to be. it is those who abuse and exploit them who usually own the guns.
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:45 pm
LOL, that's hilariously false. In the U.S. I would expect that wealthy people are less likely to own guns than working class people. They're not made of platinum, you know.
I am thinking globally whereas it seems that you are wearing your American blinkers. Does it not impress you that there is something fundamental wrong with the United States that people there feel so unsafe that allegedly they feel the need to keep guns in their homes for self protection?

Other civilised peoples trust in their policing authorities to protect them. It seems that only you silly yanks are so mistrustful of governmental authority that you feel the need to take the law into your own hands.
neverfail wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:37 pm
In any case Steve, you seem to have accumulated an old fashioned, protestant sort of bigotry against the Catholic Church that is totally out of place in our age of ecumenical christianity. Like a Lutheran former pal of mine from Germany who clung to the fake impression that the Catholic Church had not lifted its game since the time of Martin Luther.

Luckily, the large majority of protestants I have known have not been like that but usually have turned out to be men and women of goodwill - true christians first and protestants of their respective denominations second, in that order.

I therefore cordially invite you to pull the scales from your eyes; stop living in the past (like my Lutheran pal of yore) and become a man of goodwill and true christian also.
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:45 pm
Hardly. I started out in life with no hard feelings toward the Roman Catholic Church. But over the years they earned my disgust, and that of many others, through their revolting sexual abuse scandals and the relentless coverups suborned by the highest levels of church hierarchy.
I also an aware of those travesties and disapprove of both the crimes and the cover-ups. The highest Church authorities went into a state of denial over it for decades and bungled the issue accordingly. However, while you censure and condemn and judge you have revealed no awareness that the institutional Church is now striving to make amends. Your sense of disgust as revealed in this and your previous post speaks of someone who has convinced himself that he is above sin.

(Well, can I expect any better from somebody who does not believe in the devil?)
neverfail wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:37 pm
The glaring hypocrisy is yours Steve Foerster: for sitting in judgement in a parody of God seated on his heavenly throne.
If God is just, it's Catholic hierarchs, those latter-day Pharisees, who He will judge the most harshly, for relentlessly soiling His name with their filthy actions. Make no mistake, they are the ones who are an abomination unto the Lord.
[/quote]

No! If Jesus Christ in merciful then he will FORGIVE all of these miscreants, along with all other repentant sinners, who sincerely repent their sins and accept them into his heaven.

Your vision of God as a fire-and-brimstone god of vengeance and retribution represents the God understood by the ancient Hebrews - an Old Testament vision of God. In that doubt I question whether you should seriously consider yourself a christian.

neverfail
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Re: Pope Francis and the Economy

Post by neverfail » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:42 am

Milo wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:31 pm
I cannot think of a single thing the RCC has changed since Protestantism began, except for providing services in the vernacular, and that took till 1962!
Then you are out of touch.

Jim the Moron
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Re: Pope Francis and the Economy

Post by Jim the Moron » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:28 am

"Tradition dies hard; especially in an institution as ancient as this one." (the RCC)

Precisely correct, neverfail. The time-honored tradition of pedophilia practiced by clergy shows no sign of dying out. And I guess we can be comforted by the "shit happens" excuses for the behavior of said clergy we get daily from the Vatican.

neverfail
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Re: Pope Francis and the Economy

Post by neverfail » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:08 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:28 am
"Tradition dies hard; especially in an institution as ancient as this one." (the RCC)

Precisely correct, neverfail. The time-honored tradition of pedophilia practiced by clergy shows no sign of dying out. And I guess we can be comforted by the "shit happens" excuses for the behavior of said clergy we get daily from the Vatican.
You are truly behind the times in your perception of the situation.

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armchair_pundit
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Re: Pope Francis and the Economy

Post by armchair_pundit » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:57 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:08 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:28 am
"Tradition dies hard; especially in an institution as ancient as this one." (the RCC)

Precisely correct, neverfail. The time-honored tradition of pedophilia practiced by clergy shows no sign of dying out. And I guess we can be comforted by the "shit happens" excuses for the behavior of said clergy we get daily from the Vatican.
You are truly behind the times in your perception of the situation.
Is he?


Explosive new book lifts lid on gay priests in the Vatican = https://www.thetablet.co.uk/news/11356/ ... he-vatican

Eighty per cent of Vatican priests are gay according to explosive new book which claims to uncover double lives of homophobic priests who use male prostitutes
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -book.html

Four in five Vatican priests are gay, book claims
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... ook-claims

neverfail
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Re: Pope Francis and the Economy

Post by neverfail » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:45 pm

armchair_pundit wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:57 am

Explosive new book lifts lid on gay priests in the Vatican = https://www.thetablet.co.uk/news/11356/ ... he-vatican

Eighty per cent of Vatican priests are gay according to explosive new book which claims to uncover double lives of homophobic priests who use male prostitutes
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -book.html

Four in five Vatican priests are gay, book claims
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... ook-claims
It might even be true armchair-pundit. I would not be surprised if it were. But what else is new?

500 years ago after the Borgia and Medici dynasties of Popes had had sufficient time (centuries in fact) between them to screw the church over, The Vatican invited scandal as a place of high living where regular orgies were conducted reminiscent of the ones the worst of the Roman Emperors of old are reputed to have indulged in.

Martin Luther, a provincial German theologian who once spent months on pilgrimage living in Rome returned to his native Germany convinced that the devil had seized control over the Vatican and it was his vocation in life to save the Church from its malign influence. Hence his subsequent role as "father of the protestant reformation" (i.e. as the leading Catholic revolutionary firebrand of the 16th century).

The Vatican, as far as I can see, has never been a venue for great moral uprightness and ethical propriety on the part of its high officials. I am sure that Pope after Pope (not least the present one) has been mortified by that inexorable reality each pontiff has had to live with.

Yet the strange thing is that despite all of that, the Catholic Church is still with us and so is The Vatican.

By worldly reckoning (all other things being equal) it should have by now disintegrated and joined the defunct empires of yore as another reference in the history books to a glory that no longer is.

In the old Asia Times Forums discussion venue we used to have a well liked contributor/participant who posted under the pseudonym Booklady's Ghost (remember her?) . BG was convinced that the Holy Spirit must be guiding her (and my) Church for the simple (I would think obvious) reason that those who occupy official positions in the Vatican now and in the past have so often been of such flawed, even disreputable, character that The catholic Church could not possibly have survived this long without divine intervention. With the passage of time as I progressively learn more and suffer more as a consequence, I draw the conclusion that Booklady was probably right.
..................................................................................................................

Having written the above acknowledgement to the effect that The Vatican is likely stuffed full of human trash (Which should please all of you protestant and atheist cynics out there :lol: ) ; I still see signs around me even in my own parish of a budding renewal of the Church from within.

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armchair_pundit
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Re: Pope Francis and the Economy

Post by armchair_pundit » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:34 pm

neverfail wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:45 pm
In the old Asia Times Forums discussion venue we used to have a well liked contributor/participant who posted under the pseudonym Booklady's Ghost (remember her?) . BG was convinced that the Holy Spirit must be guiding her (and my) Church for the simple (I would think obvious) reason that those who occupy official positions in the Vatican now and in the past have so often been of such flawed, even disreputable, character that The catholic Church could not possibly have survived this long without divine intervention. With the passage of time as I progressively learn more and suffer more as a consequence, I draw the conclusion that Booklady was probably right.
..................................................................................................................

Having written the above acknowledgement to the effect that The Vatican is likely stuffed full of human trash (Which should please all of you protestant and atheist cynics out there :lol: ) ; I still see signs around me even in my own parish of a budding renewal of the Church from within.
No schadenfreude here, NF. Just a general sadness.

I dearly miss BookLady and do have hope she will grace us once again with her presence.

I fear if she and you are right, its not just the Church, but all Institutions of Man that seem to attract the most corrupt among us... yet we are still here, so praise be to Divine Providence!

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Sertorio
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Re: Pope Francis and the Economy

Post by Sertorio » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:40 pm

armchair_pundit wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:34 pm
neverfail wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:45 pm
In the old Asia Times Forums discussion venue we used to have a well liked contributor/participant who posted under the pseudonym Booklady's Ghost (remember her?) . BG was convinced that the Holy Spirit must be guiding her (and my) Church for the simple (I would think obvious) reason that those who occupy official positions in the Vatican now and in the past have so often been of such flawed, even disreputable, character that The catholic Church could not possibly have survived this long without divine intervention. With the passage of time as I progressively learn more and suffer more as a consequence, I draw the conclusion that Booklady was probably right.
..................................................................................................................

Having written the above acknowledgement to the effect that The Vatican is likely stuffed full of human trash (Which should please all of you protestant and atheist cynics out there :lol: ) ; I still see signs around me even in my own parish of a budding renewal of the Church from within.
No schadenfreude here, NF. Just a general sadness.

I dearly miss BookLady and do have hope she will grace us once again with her presence.

I fear if she and you are right, its not just the Church, but all Institutions of Man that seem to attract the most corrupt among us... yet we are still here, so praise be to Divine Providence!
We are only about 400,000 years old as a species. As a species my dog is several times older than I am. Maybe I can learn something from it, because we sure still have a lot to learn and to evolve...

neverfail
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Re: Pope Francis Pope Francis urges homosexual priests and nuns to be celibate, or leave.

Post by neverfail » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:14 pm

In his clearest comments on the subject yet, Pope Francis says active homosexuals in the Catholic Church should leave, rather than live a "double life".

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-03/ ... h/10575980
While this request seems to be an impartial one applicable to active homosexual and lesbian clergy at all levels: I would not be the least surprised if, over his shoulder, this plea was especially directed to the alleged approx. 80% of homosexual priests (which would also mean bishops and cardinals permanently resident in or attached to the Vatican) at Vatican City.

It seems that this cabal has such a grip on the government of the Catholic Church that the Pope can only plead with them to go. I doubt whether he has the power to sack them. Certainly not in one hit.

Well, at least Pope Francis is earnestly trying to clean up the Church's act.

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