The Russian Navy is in a sorry state

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neverfail
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Re: The Russian Navy is in a sorry state

Post by neverfail » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:56 am

So what? Russia is a terrestrial, not a maritime, power that does not need a navy to defend itself anyhow. Just an army and an air force.

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cassowary
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Re: The Russian Navy is in a sorry state

Post by cassowary » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:57 am

Let me quote from the article:
February 2, 2019: The prolonged low oil prices are doing major damage to the Russian Navy. Less oil income on top of the damage done by economic sanctions because of the Ukraine invasion, plus the additional production costs caused by the loss of Ukrainian defense industry suppliers has forced Russia to make a number of changes that have not been mentioned in navy press releases. Forced to make major cuts in defense spending and do so in a way that does the least damage ended up hitting naval shipbuilding particularly hard. Only one of these cuts made the news and was because the only aircraft carrier, the Kuznetsov (built in 1990), was undergoing one last refurbishment in a floating drydock. But a shipyard worker accidentally caused the drydock to sink with the Kuznetsov in it. The carrier got out with some damage but the Swedish built (in 1980) drydock was too expensive to replace or even recover. The refurbishment of the Kuznetsov was canceled and while the ship may be optimistically placed in reserve (pending future opportunities to revive it) the navy now lacks any carriers. It may be decades, if ever, before they have an operational carrier. The two Kirov class battlecruisers (completed in 1988 and 1998) are being scrapped because there is no money for maintenance and needed refurbishment on the older ship.
As always, it is the economy that is the foundation for military strength. America is now a net energy exporter. This will put a dampener on oil price. Putin did not develop an economy that can make its living by selling cars, building ships, planes TV etc.

The Chinese are smarter. They focus on building up their economy first. They lay low and pretended to be harmless. Then came oBUMa, the weak President. China bared its fangs by laying claim on the S China Sea and building military bases on the Spratly Islands thinking the US is in decline.

Trump gave them a shock with his trade war.

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cassowary
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Re: The Russian Navy is in a sorry state

Post by cassowary » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:59 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:56 am
So what? Russia is a terrestrial, not a maritime, power that does not need a navy to defend itself anyhow. Just an army and an air force.
Then why are they in Syria? I thought they wanted the Syrian port so that they can claim to be a Mediterranean power. Why have a port when you don't have ships for a blue water navy?

It seems to me that Putin does not know what he is doing. What a clown. He spent billions in Syria for what? It would have been better if he used that money to build up his navy. From now on, i will call him, PutPut.

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Doc
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Re: The Russian Navy is in a sorry state

Post by Doc » Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:35 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:59 am
neverfail wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:56 am
So what? Russia is a terrestrial, not a maritime, power that does not need a navy to defend itself anyhow. Just an army and an air force.
Then why are they in Syria? I thought they wanted the Syrian port so that they can claim to be a Mediterranean power. Why have a port when you don't have ships for a blue water navy?

It seems to me that Putin does not know what he is doing. What a clown. He spent billions in Syria for what? It would have been better if he used that money to build up his navy. From now on, i will call him, PutPut.
Syria is an advertisement to sell Russian arms.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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SteveFoerster
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Re: The Russian Navy is in a sorry state

Post by SteveFoerster » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:45 am

Doc wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:35 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:59 am
neverfail wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:56 am
So what? Russia is a terrestrial, not a maritime, power that does not need a navy to defend itself anyhow. Just an army and an air force.
Then why are they in Syria? I thought they wanted the Syrian port so that they can claim to be a Mediterranean power. Why have a port when you don't have ships for a blue water navy?

It seems to me that Putin does not know what he is doing. What a clown. He spent billions in Syria for what? It would have been better if he used that money to build up his navy. From now on, i will call him, PutPut.
Syria is an advertisement to sell Russian arms.
Considering that that's their second largest industry after fossil fuels, that's entirely plausible. Plus the whole matter helped to realign Turkey somewhat, which is also to Putin's benefit.
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Alexis
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Re: The Russian Navy is in a sorry state

Post by Alexis » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:57 am

That the Russian Navy is in a sorry state is no news. However, this article exaggerates the problems and some is just factually incorrect.

Examples:
- It states that "The two Kirov class battlecruisers (completed in 1988 and 1998) are being scrapped because there is no money for maintenance and needed refurbishment on the older ship"
:arrow: Wrong. Pyotr Velikiy, the most recent, is in service. Admiral Nakhimov, the oldest, is being rebuilt, the works are proceeding slowly but it should be completed by 2021
- It states about Borei-type SSBNs that "There are now four in service but construction on the other four has been stopped"
:arrow: Wrong. Building of Knyaz Oleg, the fifth of them, is proceeding albeit it was slowed by financing issues plus issues at a subcontractor - which also happens in Western countries. For these reasons, it will be delivered only this year

Some of the issues pointed by the article are real. However, finding factual errors in a text presented as authoritative... does not give too much confidence in the rest ;)

Generally, contemporary Russian Navy:
- Is even more centered on submarines than the late Soviet Navy. SSBN and SSN construction is proceeding, albeit obviously more slowly than in the former USSR or in contemporary USA. Russia is also building rather numerous good classical submarines
- Includes one, soon two, powerful battlecruisers of the Kirov class - its main surface ships
- Along with a rather large number of frigates, which can fire long range cruise missiles
- Doesn't have any operational aircraft carrier, since Kuznetsov was never very much operational to begin with and will now quietly stay in port
- Doesn't have any helicopter carrier - the ones France eventually decided not to deliver were not replaced by any local design
- Doesn't have many destroyers, and doesn't seem to invest much in them

Overall, it is much more comparable to the French or British Navies than to the US Navy - which remains absolutely without any parallel. And it is smaller than the Chinese Navy - Russian is superior to that Navy only for SSNs, where Chinese lag quite a bit.

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Sertorio
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Re: The Russian Navy is in a sorry state

Post by Sertorio » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:56 am

Alexis wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:57 am
That the Russian Navy is in a sorry state is no news. However, this article exaggerates the problems and some is just factually incorrect.

Examples:
- It states that "The two Kirov class battlecruisers (completed in 1988 and 1998) are being scrapped because there is no money for maintenance and needed refurbishment on the older ship"
:arrow: Wrong. Pyotr Velikiy, the most recent, is in service. Admiral Nakhimov, the oldest, is being rebuilt, the works are proceeding slowly but it should be completed by 2021
- It states about Borei-type SSBNs that "There are now four in service but construction on the other four has been stopped"
:arrow: Wrong. Building of Knyaz Oleg, the fifth of them, is proceeding albeit it was slowed by financing issues plus issues at a subcontractor - which also happens in Western countries. For these reasons, it will be delivered only this year

Some of the issues pointed by the article are real. However, finding factual errors in a text presented as authoritative... does not give too much confidence in the rest ;)

Generally, contemporary Russian Navy:
- Is even more centered on submarines than the late Soviet Navy. SSBN and SSN construction is proceeding, albeit obviously more slowly than in the former USSR or in contemporary USA. Russia is also building rather numerous good classical submarines
- Includes one, soon two, powerful battlecruisers of the Kirov class - its main surface ships
- Along with a rather large number of frigates, which can fire long range cruise missiles
- Doesn't have any operational aircraft carrier, since Kuznetsov was never very much operational to begin with and will now quietly stay in port
- Doesn't have any helicopter carrier - the ones France eventually decided not to deliver were not replaced by any local design
- Doesn't have many destroyers, and doesn't seem to invest much in them

Overall, it is much more comparable to the French or British Navies than to the US Navy - which remains absolutely without any parallel. And it is smaller than the Chinese Navy - Russian is superior to that Navy only for SSNs, where Chinese lag quite a bit.
Cassowary is so afraid of Russia and China that he seeks solace in any falsehoods he finds on the web about the power of those two countries. Rather than inventing weaknesses that do not exist, Cass should finally realize that dealing in a friendly manner with those countries will lead more readily to world peace than any misplaced warmongering.

neverfail
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Re: The Russian Navy is in a sorry state

Post by neverfail » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:33 pm

cassowary wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:59 am
neverfail wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:56 am
So what? Russia is a terrestrial, not a maritime, power that does not need a navy to defend itself anyhow. Just an army and an air force.
Then why are they in Syria? I thought they wanted the Syrian port so that they can claim to be a Mediterranean power. Why have a port when you don't have ships for a blue water navy?

It seems to me that Putin does not know what he is doing. What a clown. He spent billions in Syria for what? It would have been better if he used that money to build up his navy. From now on, i will call him, PutPut.
Syria is irrelevant to the defence of mother Russia. Putin may be well advised to curb his great power ambitions in favour of a generation of nation building - as you suggest. However, that does not appear to be the Russian way.

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Sertorio
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Re: The Russian Navy is in a sorry state

Post by Sertorio » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:27 pm

neverfail wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:33 pm

Syria is irrelevant to the defence of mother Russia. Putin may be well advised to curb his great power ambitions in favour of a generation of nation building - as you suggest. However, that does not appear to be the Russian way.
Anything which weakens the US is relevant to the defense of Russia. And in Syria the US becomes weaker by not succeeding in overthrowing Bashar al-Assad. Very much as the result of Russia's intervention in Syria.

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