The Liberation of Venezuela

Discussion of current events
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neverfail
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Re: Chavez-Maduro: the final nail in Venezuela's coffin?

Post by neverfail » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:45 pm

cassowary wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:59 am


First of all, Neverfail, Peron was elected in 1946 Presidential election. He was not brought to power in a coup. See your own link.

Excerpt:
Perón and his running mate, Hortensio Quijano, leveraged popular support to victory over a Radical Civic Union-led opposition alliance by about 11% in the February 24, 1946 presidential elections.
Considering that the armed forces had held Argentina in their grip for years by then, it amazes me that they even allowed that election to go ahead. When an election can only take place when permitted by a nation's military top brass, real power in the country still lays with the armed forces and therefore you DO NOT have a democracy.

That they allowed it to happen at all may well have been because they accepted Peron as being one of their own.
cassowary wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:59 am

Had the military triumphed and kept Peron in jail, Argentina would have been spared Peron's Socialist policies. See your own quote. MInimum wage, laws that favor the unions, state ownership etc are all leftist prescriptions. Such policies led to economic disaster.
Wishful thinking on your part cassowary. The Argentine military were complicit in bringing about the catastrophe on two seperate ways. First is that, despite being the nation's power broker (not unusual in Latin America I believe) they permitted the Peron's to make their run unimpeded. Second, after Juan Peron was allowed exile in Spain following his overthrow in 1955, Argentina was destined to have decades of military rule and yet these did absolutely nothing to wind back the errors of Peronism with free market reforms. Meaning that the consensus among the top brass endorsed Peronist policies even while disowning their innovator.

(By the way: like Juan Peron, Victor Chavez in Venezuela was a former military officer who was just as clueless about how to manage a national economy which he combined with a know-alls proud conviction that he knew better. Military officers demand absolute obedience from the officers and soldiers of lesser rank. When they take control of a nations government that usually defines the way they like to organise society at large. So the overregulated Fascist style corporate state structure appeals to men of this background. The command economy appeals to men who like to be in command. :D )

Alas, you seem to associate military rule in Latin America with Chile's General Pinochet. Argentina's juntas were never like that.
cassowary wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:59 am
After the war, Europe was rebuilding. So there should also be ample opportunity for Argentina to benefit and grow economically. But alas, it took the wrong economic policies.
A valid point.

I believe that, like all other food surplus and raw materials exporting states of the time that had survived WW2 reasonably intact, Argentina did get considerable economic mileage out of that European period of reconstruction but as you say squandered the benefits. About 1953 the big party ended; prices for food and raw materials dropped considerably and before too many years such countries were in current account trouble (it happened in Uruguay and New zealand as well). That it did not happen here in Australia as well testifies to how prudently our government back in the 1950's managed to eke out the accumulated surpluses from the preceeding boom.

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cassowary
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Re: The Liberation of Venezuela

Post by cassowary » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:28 pm

The military was forced to release Peron because of the massive protests. The TOP brass did not support him . If they allowed him to go into exile its because Peron retained substantial support from the people.

Traditionally, the military was on the side of the rich landowners. Before Argentina became a democracy, it practiced free markets and prospered. The fewer landowners were protected by the guns of the military.

The problem with the farming industry is that you need economies of scale to be efficient. So a hundred families end up owing most of the lans. This meant a concentration of wealth that causes social discontent.

neverfail
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Re: The Liberation of ...Argentina?

Post by neverfail » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:34 pm

cassowary wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:28 pm
The military was forced to release Peron because of the massive protests. The TOP brass did not support him . If they allowed him to go into exile its because Peron retained substantial support from the people.

Traditionally, the military was on the side of the rich landowners. Before Argentina became a democracy, it practiced free markets and prospered. The fewer landowners were protected by the guns of the military.

The problem with the farming industry is that you need economies of scale to be efficient. So a hundred families end up owing most of the lans. This meant a concentration of wealth that causes social discontent.
Not a happy situation at all!

No attempt was ever made to divide the land up fairly and equably in the first place. Instead, back in the 19th century the few who had political power divided the land up among themselves - as rapaciously as a gang of conquistadores dividing up the loot of gold and silver plundered from an Indian civilisation they had just conquered. They must have foreseen that as the population built up the land would become valuable. Knaves and scoundrels that generation of freebooters may have been: fools they were not!

When too much landed wealth is held by too few members of a privileged upper class there is also the risk that the full potential of the land will never be developed. Owning the land becomes more of a matter of social status than the basis for serious agribusiness. So much privately owned land gets neglected.

Here in Australia we had no choice but to have big sheep runs and outback cattle stations as our semi-arid grasslands and nutriment poor soils made smalltime family farming unviable. In Argentine Patagonia you had likewise the same situation of aridity making extensive livestock ranching unavoidable. But if I comprehend the fertility and moisture content of the northern pampas correctly smalltime family farming would probably have worked there.

New Zealand is far more distant from the UK market than even Argentina yet on their (fertile and well watered) North Island small time family dairy farming was tried out and proved a success. So much so that for approx. 80 years it was the backbone for their national economy. By flow-on inference it also provided the socio-economic basis for the stable parliamentary democracy New Zealand has been since its inception and sadly Argentina has never been to this day.

Of course the concentration of wealth caused social discontent Cassowary. Not even because of your usual stock allegation of envy but because it backed the disenfranchised mass of people into an unacceptable corner with no way out - except for political agitation.

Redistribution of wealth means redistribution of economic opportunity: not robbing one group of their assets to give to another. This precept is something that I notice you seems to have a lot of difficulty wrapping your mind around. Yet in my country the ideal is almost seconds nature - it needs no explanation as everyone understands almost instinctively that this is what it means.

Having stated all of that I agree with your earlier link that Argentina would benefit massively from an intelligent program of free market reforms (as the author suggests). I pity whoever's destiny it may be to have to finally clean out the Argentine Augean stable: considering the range of interests it is likely to disaffect. Whoever it is will need a first rate security detail to save him from the assassin's bullet.

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lzzrdgrrl
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Re: The Liberation of Venezuela

Post by lzzrdgrrl » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:51 pm

With speculation rampant over whether the Trump administration is going to invade Venezuela, it is useful to review the American experience in Iraq. On the eve of the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003, the strategic perceptions of Saddam and U.S. planners could not have been more divergent, according to a recently published 1,500-page, 2-volume Army War College survey of that conflict. (Links to volume 1 and volume 2.) America's toppling of Saddam was an attempt to fix the chaos that resulted in 9/11 and challenged the global world order. "The fight against al-Qaeda in Iraq or the Islamic State in Iraq was part of a broader campaign against al-Qaeda and its associated movements. Fighting in Yemen, Somalia, Mali, and other locations was connected through a strategic framework―both ours and our enemies’―with the fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan" (vol. 1, p. 35).
https://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/ve ... ton-clock/
I have a certain notoriety among the lesser gods........

neverfail
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Re: The Liberation of Venezuela

Post by neverfail » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:38 pm

lzzrdgrrl wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:51 pm
With speculation rampant over whether the Trump administration is going to invade Venezuela, it is useful to review the American experience in Iraq. On the eve of the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003, the strategic perceptions of Saddam and U.S. planners could not have been more divergent, according to a recently published 1,500-page, 2-volume Army War College survey of that conflict. (Links to volume 1 and volume 2.) America's toppling of Saddam was an attempt to fix the chaos that resulted in 9/11 and challenged the global world order. "The fight against al-Qaeda in Iraq or the Islamic State in Iraq was part of a broader campaign against al-Qaeda and its associated movements. Fighting in Yemen, Somalia, Mali, and other locations was connected through a strategic framework―both ours and our enemies’―with the fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan" (vol. 1, p. 35).
https://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/ve ... ton-clock/
Very interesting read Izz. Thanks.

Venezuela is self-destructing. Is there any valid reason for the US to send troops in?

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Sertorio
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Re: The Liberation of Venezuela

Post by Sertorio » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:54 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:38 pm

Venezuela is self-destructing. Is there any valid reason for the US to send troops in?
Since the end of WW II, has there ever been any valid reason for the US to send troops anywhere?...

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Doc
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Re: The Liberation of Venezuela

Post by Doc » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:19 am

“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Doc
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Re: The Liberation of Venezuela

Post by Doc » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:42 am

“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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SteveFoerster
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Re: The Liberation of Venezuela

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:30 am

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:54 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:38 pm
Venezuela is self-destructing. Is there any valid reason for the US to send troops in?
Since the end of WW II, has there ever been any valid reason for the US to send troops anywhere?...
Well, do you think that 9/11 was insufficient justification for the U.S. to invade Afghanistan?
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

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Sertorio
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Re: The Liberation of Venezuela

Post by Sertorio » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:00 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:30 am
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:54 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:38 pm
Venezuela is self-destructing. Is there any valid reason for the US to send troops in?
Since the end of WW II, has there ever been any valid reason for the US to send troops anywhere?...
Well, do you think that 9/11 was insufficient justification for the U.S. to invade Afghanistan?
What had Afhganistan to do with 9/11?... :shock:

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