PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Discussion of current events
User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 2719
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by Sertorio » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:46 am

cassowary wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:35 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:36 pm
cassowary wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:13 am
It came close to collapse at Tiananmen.
Did it? No, even at the time I did not get the impression that the Chinese Communist party was a spent force.

Having stated that, I was unpleasantly surprised that the ruling committee did not at least offer the demonstrators some concessions. Instead, they sent in the tanks.

It did not happen immediately. Apparently the ruling committee of the CCP, confronted with an unprecedented situation debated for days among themselves about what to do. With each passing day of vacillation the crowd at Tiananmen Square kept on growing bigger.
cassowary wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:13 am
That stupid Bush should have supported the students and placed sanctions.


Bush was not stupid; just very cautious. Some may even say he was overcautious. The demonstrators did not represent an alternative government (backed by a party organisation and with clear leadership) waiting in the wings to assume the responsibility of government. It was just a spontaneously assembled crowd spearheaded by idealistic youth who had also underestimated the lethal ruthlessness country's leadership was capable of. They were NOT dealing with Mikhail Gorbachev; that was their fatal error of judgement.

Bush was diplomatically correct in not wishing to run the political risk of backing the demonstrators; yet I agree that he still could have signalled disapproval of the Tiananmen Square carnage by at least temporarily imposing sanctions on the PRC. Other Western countries would then surely have followed suit. His failure to do so must have as much as signalled the PRC leadership that it is okay to commit human rights abuses against their own people - and it would still be business as usual thereafter.

cassowary wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:13 am
. I Guess he under estimated Asian people. He didn’t realise that China will become a threat.
Of course he did not see it as an emerging threat cass: nor did anyone else at the time (least of all we out here). Since Mao's demise China had developed the image (outwardly at least) as being quite a friendly place and governments in The West, of course, wanted to encourage that welcome trend to continue.
Economic sanctions would have toppled the regime. It would have strengthened the hand of moderates like Zhao Zhiyang who met the students. The regime may look solid from the outside but is actually quite fragile. They are pretending to appear reasonable , hiding their strength and biding their time till they are strong enough.

The weakness of oBUMa convinced them to bare their teeth prematurely. Hence they started claiming the S China Sea and building military bases on those islands. Then along came Trump who has the courage to confront them.
I sincerely hope you will live long enough to see how wrong you are on most counts...

neverfail
Posts: 3839
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am
Location: Singapore

Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by neverfail » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:12 pm

cassowary wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:35 am

Economic sanctions would have toppled the regime. It would have strengthened the hand of moderates like Zhao Zhiyang who met the students. The regime may look solid from the outside but is actually quite fragile. They are pretending to appear reasonable , hiding their strength and biding their time till they are strong enough.

The weakness of oBUMa convinced them to bare their teeth prematurely. Hence they started claiming the S China Sea and building military bases on those islands. Then along came Trump who has the courage to confront them.
The lack of response to the massacre by Western governments was reprehensible Cass. Yet I still wonder whether economic sanctions would have changed anything for the better. Do you know something I don't?

In 1989, the PRC was still not Australia's trading partner but was our fastest growing and most promising. I have doubts about whether our government of the time would have wanted to spoil a good thing by joining an international boycott.

Many other countries might have likewise baulked - which might be the reason why even the USA under Bush's leadership did not try to organise one.

I defer to your point on the "fragility" of the PRC regime cass.

As for Trump: I do not view his as "courageous" but as full of bluff and bluster. Not the same!

neverfail
Posts: 3839
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am
Location: Singapore

Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by neverfail » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:20 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:46 am

I sincerely hope you will live long enough to see how wrong you are on most counts...
Sertorio: please read my long quote in the opening post of this discussion and cease deceiving yourself.

The fact that the PRC would go to such pains to harass and intimidate a Professor of Chinese studies in distant New Zealand - a country not unfriendly to China and innocent of all wrongdoing towards it: do you really believe that such a power colossus, disrespectful of the rights of citizens of foreign countries, would hesitate from being overbearing towards its smaller neighbours to the south in pursuit of policy goals?

This growing power colossus is a menace to the human rights and civil liberties of us all.

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 2719
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by Sertorio » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:47 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:20 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:46 am

I sincerely hope you will live long enough to see how wrong you are on most counts...
Sertorio: please read my long quote in the opening post of this discussion and cease deceiving yourself.

The fact that the PRC would go to such pains to harass and intimidate a Professor of Chinese studies in distant New Zealand - a country not unfriendly to China and innocent of all wrongdoing towards it: do you really believe that such a power colossus, disrespectful of the rights of citizens of foreign countries, would hesitate from being overbearing towards its smaller neighbours to the south in pursuit of policy goals?

This growing power colossus is a menace to the human rights and civil liberties of us all.
And do you not see the US doing very much the same thing? Isn't intimidation a common American weapon to defeat any opposition? I can give you a few examples, were you in need of my help. But I'm sure you know what I'm talking about...

User avatar
SteveFoerster
Posts: 2060
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:17 pm
Location: Northern Virginia, USA and Dominica, West Indies
Contact:

Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by SteveFoerster » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:35 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:47 pm
neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:20 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:46 am

I sincerely hope you will live long enough to see how wrong you are on most counts...
Sertorio: please read my long quote in the opening post of this discussion and cease deceiving yourself.

The fact that the PRC would go to such pains to harass and intimidate a Professor of Chinese studies in distant New Zealand - a country not unfriendly to China and innocent of all wrongdoing towards it: do you really believe that such a power colossus, disrespectful of the rights of citizens of foreign countries, would hesitate from being overbearing towards its smaller neighbours to the south in pursuit of policy goals?

This growing power colossus is a menace to the human rights and civil liberties of us all.
And do you not see the US doing very much the same thing? Isn't intimidation a common American weapon to defeat any opposition? I can give you a few examples, were you in need of my help. But I'm sure you know what I'm talking about...
Yes, sometimes. But that's not what this topic is about, because the rest of us understand that U.S. policymakers are not the world's only danger.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

User avatar
cassowary
Posts: 3125
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:30 pm

Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by cassowary » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:36 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:46 am
cassowary wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:35 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:36 pm
cassowary wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:13 am
It came close to collapse at Tiananmen.
Did it? No, even at the time I did not get the impression that the Chinese Communist party was a spent force.

Having stated that, I was unpleasantly surprised that the ruling committee did not at least offer the demonstrators some concessions. Instead, they sent in the tanks.

It did not happen immediately. Apparently the ruling committee of the CCP, confronted with an unprecedented situation debated for days among themselves about what to do. With each passing day of vacillation the crowd at Tiananmen Square kept on growing bigger.
cassowary wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:13 am
That stupid Bush should have supported the students and placed sanctions.


Bush was not stupid; just very cautious. Some may even say he was overcautious. The demonstrators did not represent an alternative government (backed by a party organisation and with clear leadership) waiting in the wings to assume the responsibility of government. It was just a spontaneously assembled crowd spearheaded by idealistic youth who had also underestimated the lethal ruthlessness country's leadership was capable of. They were NOT dealing with Mikhail Gorbachev; that was their fatal error of judgement.

Bush was diplomatically correct in not wishing to run the political risk of backing the demonstrators; yet I agree that he still could have signalled disapproval of the Tiananmen Square carnage by at least temporarily imposing sanctions on the PRC. Other Western countries would then surely have followed suit. His failure to do so must have as much as signalled the PRC leadership that it is okay to commit human rights abuses against their own people - and it would still be business as usual thereafter.

cassowary wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:13 am
. I Guess he under estimated Asian people. He didn’t realise that China will become a threat.
Of course he did not see it as an emerging threat cass: nor did anyone else at the time (least of all we out here). Since Mao's demise China had developed the image (outwardly at least) as being quite a friendly place and governments in The West, of course, wanted to encourage that welcome trend to continue.
Economic sanctions would have toppled the regime. It would have strengthened the hand of moderates like Zhao Zhiyang who met the students. The regime may look solid from the outside but is actually quite fragile. They are pretending to appear reasonable , hiding their strength and biding their time till they are strong enough.

The weakness of oBUMa convinced them to bare their teeth prematurely. Hence they started claiming the S China Sea and building military bases on those islands. Then along came Trump who has the courage to confront them.
I sincerely hope you will live long enough to see how wrong you are on most counts...
Same to you, Sertorio. Your views are totally the opposite of mine on nearly everything. Only one of us is right.

I believe it’s me.
The Imp :D

neverfail
Posts: 3839
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am
Location: Singapore

Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by neverfail » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:58 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:47 pm
neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:20 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:46 am

I sincerely hope you will live long enough to see how wrong you are on most counts...
Sertorio: please read my long quote in the opening post of this discussion and cease deceiving yourself.

The fact that the PRC would go to such pains to harass and intimidate a Professor of Chinese studies in distant New Zealand - a country not unfriendly to China and innocent of all wrongdoing towards it: do you really believe that such a power colossus, disrespectful of the rights of citizens of foreign countries, would hesitate from being overbearing towards its smaller neighbours to the south in pursuit of policy goals?

This growing power colossus is a menace to the human rights and civil liberties of us all.
And do you not see the US doing very much the same thing? Isn't intimidation a common American weapon to defeat any opposition? I can give you a few examples, were you in need of my help. But I'm sure you know what I'm talking about...
That US policymakers (along with other world powers) might have sinned does not in any way exonerate the PRC for its misdeeds. So tell me when and where agents of the US government have treated any foreign critic the way agents of the PRC government have employed mafia tactics (and probably are still ) on Professor brady of Christchurch, NZ?

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 2719
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by Sertorio » Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:59 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:35 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:47 pm
neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:20 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:46 am

I sincerely hope you will live long enough to see how wrong you are on most counts...
Sertorio: please read my long quote in the opening post of this discussion and cease deceiving yourself.

The fact that the PRC would go to such pains to harass and intimidate a Professor of Chinese studies in distant New Zealand - a country not unfriendly to China and innocent of all wrongdoing towards it: do you really believe that such a power colossus, disrespectful of the rights of citizens of foreign countries, would hesitate from being overbearing towards its smaller neighbours to the south in pursuit of policy goals?

This growing power colossus is a menace to the human rights and civil liberties of us all.
And do you not see the US doing very much the same thing? Isn't intimidation a common American weapon to defeat any opposition? I can give you a few examples, were you in need of my help. But I'm sure you know what I'm talking about...
Yes, sometimes. But that's not what this topic is about, because the rest of us understand that U.S. policymakers are not the world's only danger.
You are right in saying that the U.S. policymakers are not the world's only danger. But it is mostly the US policies which threaten the world with war(s). The wish to overthrow Bashar al-Assad in Syria led the US to foster the rebellion which has caused hundreds of thousands of casualties. The wish to overthrow Maduro in Venezuela has led the US to sanction Venezuela in such a way that is threatening many Venezuelans with starvation and deprivation of essential goods. The US regularly threatens countries like North Korea and Iran with massive military aggression. Even Russia is being threatened by an increasingly aggressive NATO, under the orders of the US. I do not see any other major country acting in this manner. Yes, China "could" become a threat, but it isn't, at the moment. Yes, Russia has distabilized the Ukraine by engineering the reunification of Crimea with Russia and encouraging the split in the Donbass, but wasn't that the result of confrontational policies of the Ukraine in respect of Russia? Russia "could" become a threat to Europe, but it isn't, at the moment. And were Europe to further a normal relationship with Russia and such threat could never materialize. To further peace in our planet, it is the US which must be checked, not China or Russia. At least as things now stand.

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 2719
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by Sertorio » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:07 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:58 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:47 pm
neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:20 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:46 am

I sincerely hope you will live long enough to see how wrong you are on most counts...
Sertorio: please read my long quote in the opening post of this discussion and cease deceiving yourself.

The fact that the PRC would go to such pains to harass and intimidate a Professor of Chinese studies in distant New Zealand - a country not unfriendly to China and innocent of all wrongdoing towards it: do you really believe that such a power colossus, disrespectful of the rights of citizens of foreign countries, would hesitate from being overbearing towards its smaller neighbours to the south in pursuit of policy goals?

This growing power colossus is a menace to the human rights and civil liberties of us all.
And do you not see the US doing very much the same thing? Isn't intimidation a common American weapon to defeat any opposition? I can give you a few examples, were you in need of my help. But I'm sure you know what I'm talking about...
That US policymakers (along with other world powers) might have sinned does not in any way exonerate the PRC for its misdeeds. So tell me when and where agents of the US government have treated any foreign critic the way agents of the PRC government have employed mafia tactics (and probably are still ) on Professor brady of Christchurch, NZ?
I'm not trying to exonerate the PRC for its misdeeds. I'm saying that the greatest threat to world peace comes from the US. And the way the US threatens individuals and firms which defy US sanctions against Iran is not different from the threats of China agains certain individuals. I can imagine a day when China becomes a real threat to all of us, but right now the threat comes from the US, and that's why denouncing and fighting the US should be our priority.

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 2719
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by Sertorio » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:23 am

Neverfail, you have mentioned Prof. Brady in New Zealand. And what do you think of this:
Recent controversies regarding Chinese influence down under – including the revelation last week that the New Zealand MP Yang Jian had taught English to Chinese spies – have prompted discussions in both Canberra and Wellington on whether more should be done to protect policymakers and parliaments from foreign interference.

Some experts said Yang’s case – as well as media reports alleging that China had been trying to buy influence through political donations and monitoring its students abroad – had raised suspicions of Beijing’s intentions and undermined it in the court of public opinion.

Last week, Yang, an MP for New Zealand’s governing National Party, confirmed he had taught English to Chinese spies in the 1980s and 1990s. The Financial Times and New Zealand website Newsroomreported that Yang had been investigated by the country’s spy agencies over connections to China – links that are yet to be proven.

Yang rejected allegations he was a spy and denied being disloyal to New Zealand despite admitting he had been a member of the Communist Party while in China, and had not declared the names of the military institutions he taught at when applying for citizenship. He claimed the allegations were a “smear campaign” to damage him and the National Party ahead of Saturday’s general election “just because I am Chinese”.

https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics ... ious-china
Isn't this also a form of harassment? Is there any proof that Yang has been disloyal to New Zealand?...

Post Reply