PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Discussion of current events
User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 2387
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by Sertorio » Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:24 am

neverfail wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:18 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:49 pm

For all the faults of the U.S., I can criticise it and sleep soundly at night just a few kilometres from the White House. If the Xi and Putin regimes were no worse, a Chinese and a Russian would be able to do the same in Moscow or Beijing, but we all know that's not the case.
Well, I suppose a Russian or a Chinese could do the same - as long as he voiced his criticisms to a blank wall making sure first of all that no one was within hearing range. :mrgreen:
Whether the Russian and Chinese governments are better or worse than ours is something only the Russians and Chinese can say, not us. And the fact is that the Russians seem to be pretty satisfied with their government, and the Chinese have again an emperor, just like they did for thousands of years, so satisfied people in those countries seem to outnumber those who would like something different.

And what makes us think that our system of government is so good? The fact is that half of the people in our countries don't even bother to vote, which means they are ruled by people they didn't choose. They might as well be living in a dictatorship.

neverfail
Posts: 3279
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by neverfail » Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:40 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:24 am

Whether the Russian and Chinese governments are better or worse than ours is something only the Russians and Chinese can say, not us. And the fact is that the Russians seem to be pretty satisfied with their government, and the Chinese have again an emperor, just like they did for thousands of years, so satisfied people in those countries seem to outnumber those who would like something different.

And what makes us think that our system of government is so good? The fact is that half of the people in our countries don't even bother to vote, which means they are ruled by people they didn't choose. They might as well be living in a dictatorship.
:lol: Do you manage to keep a strait face when keyboarding twaddle like that sertorio? :)

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 2387
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by Sertorio » Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:44 am

neverfail wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:40 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:24 am

Whether the Russian and Chinese governments are better or worse than ours is something only the Russians and Chinese can say, not us. And the fact is that the Russians seem to be pretty satisfied with their government, and the Chinese have again an emperor, just like they did for thousands of years, so satisfied people in those countries seem to outnumber those who would like something different.

And what makes us think that our system of government is so good? The fact is that half of the people in our countries don't even bother to vote, which means they are ruled by people they didn't choose. They might as well be living in a dictatorship.
:lol: Do you manage to keep a strait face when keyboarding twaddle like that sertorio? :)
You see, my brain hasn't been formated like yours. You can't imagine how much freer one is when one hasn't been brainwashed...

User avatar
Doc
Posts: 2592
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:09 pm
Location: Cradle To Grave

Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by Doc » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:40 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:24 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:18 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:49 pm

For all the faults of the U.S., I can criticise it and sleep soundly at night just a few kilometres from the White House. If the Xi and Putin regimes were no worse, a Chinese and a Russian would be able to do the same in Moscow or Beijing, but we all know that's not the case.
Well, I suppose a Russian or a Chinese could do the same - as long as he voiced his criticisms to a blank wall making sure first of all that no one was within hearing range. :mrgreen:
Whether the Russian and Chinese governments are better or worse than ours is something only the Russians and Chinese can say, not us. And the fact is that the Russians seem to be pretty satisfied with their government, and the Chinese have again an emperor, just like they did for thousands of years, so satisfied people in those countries seem to outnumber those who would like something different.
EXACTLY !! Germans would have followed HItler through the gates of hell... Oh Wait...
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 2387
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by Sertorio » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:43 am

Doc wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:40 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:24 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:18 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:49 pm

For all the faults of the U.S., I can criticise it and sleep soundly at night just a few kilometres from the White House. If the Xi and Putin regimes were no worse, a Chinese and a Russian would be able to do the same in Moscow or Beijing, but we all know that's not the case.
Well, I suppose a Russian or a Chinese could do the same - as long as he voiced his criticisms to a blank wall making sure first of all that no one was within hearing range. :mrgreen:
Whether the Russian and Chinese governments are better or worse than ours is something only the Russians and Chinese can say, not us. And the fact is that the Russians seem to be pretty satisfied with their government, and the Chinese have again an emperor, just like they did for thousands of years, so satisfied people in those countries seem to outnumber those who would like something different.
EXACTLY !! Germans would have followed HItler through the gates of hell... Oh Wait...
They would have, except that the war screwed it up for them...

neverfail
Posts: 3279
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by neverfail » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:48 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:24 am

Whether the Russian and Chinese governments are better or worse than ours is something only the Russians and Chinese can say, not us. And the fact is that the Russians seem to be pretty satisfied with their government, and the Chinese have again an emperor, just like they did for thousands of years, so satisfied people in those countries seem to outnumber those who would like something different.
Not "satisfied" but more likely resigned to their fate!
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:24 am
And what makes us think that our system of government is so good? The fact is that half of the people in our countries don't even bother to vote, which means they are ruled by people they didn't choose. They might as well be living in a dictatorship.
If half of the people in our countries don't even bother to vote (well, not in mine where we have compulsory attendance at the polling booth on election day :P ) then it is likely because (like yours truly) they are turned off by the cynicism of politics. But at least they have the choice.

As a consequence the governors have to call for public understanding and support instead of (as in Russia or China) members of the public just being told what to do and having to wear it.
.......................................................................................................................

By the way: have you recently re-read my opening post in this online discussion?

User avatar
cassowary
Posts: 2818
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:30 pm

Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by cassowary » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:18 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:40 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:24 am

Whether the Russian and Chinese governments are better or worse than ours is something only the Russians and Chinese can say, not us. And the fact is that the Russians seem to be pretty satisfied with their government, and the Chinese have again an emperor, just like they did for thousands of years, so satisfied people in those countries seem to outnumber those who would like something different.

And what makes us think that our system of government is so good? The fact is that half of the people in our countries don't even bother to vote, which means they are ruled by people they didn't choose. They might as well be living in a dictatorship.
:lol: Do you manage to keep a strait face when keyboarding twaddle like that sertorio? :)
Sertorio is so funny. Hahaha

User avatar
Doc
Posts: 2592
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:09 pm
Location: Cradle To Grave

Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by Doc » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:00 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:43 am
Doc wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:40 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:24 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:18 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:49 pm

For all the faults of the U.S., I can criticise it and sleep soundly at night just a few kilometres from the White House. If the Xi and Putin regimes were no worse, a Chinese and a Russian would be able to do the same in Moscow or Beijing, but we all know that's not the case.
Well, I suppose a Russian or a Chinese could do the same - as long as he voiced his criticisms to a blank wall making sure first of all that no one was within hearing range. :mrgreen:
Whether the Russian and Chinese governments are better or worse than ours is something only the Russians and Chinese can say, not us. And the fact is that the Russians seem to be pretty satisfied with their government, and the Chinese have again an emperor, just like they did for thousands of years, so satisfied people in those countries seem to outnumber those who would like something different.
EXACTLY !! Germans would have followed HItler through the gates of hell... Oh Wait...
They would have, except that the war screwed it up for them...
The Nazis ran as national socialists within the first 100 days of taking power they were given control of police forces throughout the country. They immediately started arresting anyone that spoke out against them put them in jails, early concentration camps Which terrified all that might oppose them. On the other hand Nazi socialist programs after years of economic stress was a huge carrot.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

User avatar
Doc
Posts: 2592
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:09 pm
Location: Cradle To Grave

Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by Doc » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:14 pm

“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

User avatar
cassowary
Posts: 2818
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:30 pm

Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by cassowary » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:35 am

neverfail wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:36 pm
cassowary wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:13 am
It came close to collapse at Tiananmen.
Did it? No, even at the time I did not get the impression that the Chinese Communist party was a spent force.

Having stated that, I was unpleasantly surprised that the ruling committee did not at least offer the demonstrators some concessions. Instead, they sent in the tanks.

It did not happen immediately. Apparently the ruling committee of the CCP, confronted with an unprecedented situation debated for days among themselves about what to do. With each passing day of vacillation the crowd at Tiananmen Square kept on growing bigger.
cassowary wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:13 am
That stupid Bush should have supported the students and placed sanctions.


Bush was not stupid; just very cautious. Some may even say he was overcautious. The demonstrators did not represent an alternative government (backed by a party organisation and with clear leadership) waiting in the wings to assume the responsibility of government. It was just a spontaneously assembled crowd spearheaded by idealistic youth who had also underestimated the lethal ruthlessness country's leadership was capable of. They were NOT dealing with Mikhail Gorbachev; that was their fatal error of judgement.

Bush was diplomatically correct in not wishing to run the political risk of backing the demonstrators; yet I agree that he still could have signalled disapproval of the Tiananmen Square carnage by at least temporarily imposing sanctions on the PRC. Other Western countries would then surely have followed suit. His failure to do so must have as much as signalled the PRC leadership that it is okay to commit human rights abuses against their own people - and it would still be business as usual thereafter.

cassowary wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:13 am
. I Guess he under estimated Asian people. He didn’t realise that China will become a threat.
Of course he did not see it as an emerging threat cass: nor did anyone else at the time (least of all we out here). Since Mao's demise China had developed the image (outwardly at least) as being quite a friendly place and governments in The West, of course, wanted to encourage that welcome trend to continue.
Economic sanctions would have toppled the regime. It would have strengthened the hand of moderates like Zhao Zhiyang who met the students. The regime may look solid from the outside but is actually quite fragile. They are pretending to appear reasonable , hiding their strength and biding their time till they are strong enough.

The weakness of oBUMa convinced them to bare their teeth prematurely. Hence they started claiming the S China Sea and building military bases on those islands. Then along came Trump who has the courage to confront them.

Post Reply