PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

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neverfail
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Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by neverfail » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:58 pm

cassowary wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:34 pm
Never fail is right. The Chinese Communist Party will one day go. Let’s hope Trump’s trade war will speed things up for I loathe this regime. It should usher in democracy as happened in Taiwan. This will make China more peaceful and better behaved.
Sorry that I have to pour cold water on your hopes cassowary (and in my own romantic flights of fantasy I would delight in sharing them): but I do not believe that the time for the Chinese Communist Party to be wiped away has come yet. When I forecast that it would eventually go I was thinking (Asian style) in terms of centuries.

Trump's trade war will not bring it about!

Further, when the fall happens I would not bet on this continent-sized, multi-ethnic entity necessarily lapsing into a functioning democracy as though this were the most natural thing for a country long ruled by tyranny to do. History has seen too many cases where an old tyranny, once overthrown, has in the ensuing turmoil merely sired a newer and more efficient tyranny. Like the USSR replacing Czarist autocracy.

Taiwan does not set a clear precedent for what might come about on the mainland because on Taiwan they speak just one unifying language: I believe the Hakka dialect also spoken in neighbouring Fujien provence on the mainland?

Taiwan is NOT a multi-ethnic state but demonstrates the credentials of nationhood.

As you yourself once categorically stated in a memorable post in another thread; the Chinese are not one people - talking about Chinese is like talking about Europeans. They are a very diverse bunch. On Taiwan they speak one language while in mainland China they speak umpteen of them. Keeping China unified has always been a challenge for the imperial dynasties of yore without exception. The present day Chinese Communist Party has inherited that challenge - along with the structure of a multi-ethnic imperial state to bring it about.

Arguably, multi-party democracy works in Taiwan because the Taiwanese, dwelling on a compact island and speaking the same mother-tongue (not the same as the Mandarin spoken in Beijing and elsewhere in northeastern China) are sufficiently alike in their thinking to hold a broadly similar set of views and a shared allegiance. If multi-party democracy were tried out on the mainland it would more likely be divisive and propel the country into a new chaos - preceding the arrival of a new tyranny for imposed unity and order.

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cassowary
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Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by cassowary » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:01 am

The Taiwanese speak Hokkien, the same as my ancestral language. I don't think the different languages matter so much anymore. Over the years the Chinese has developed a common culture and Mandarin is today widespread on the mainland - thanks to Communist government efforts to unify the language.

India also has many languages and they seem to do alright.

neverfail
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Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by neverfail » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:30 am

cassowary wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:01 am
The Taiwanese speak Hokkien, the same as my ancestral language. I don't think the different languages matter so much anymore. Over the years the Chinese has developed a common culture and Mandarin is today widespread on the mainland - thanks to Communist government efforts to unify the language.

India also has many languages and they seem to do alright.
Please excuse me for mistaking the name of language of Taiwan.

India may now be doing all right but Taiwan has still dome much better.

Modern China, built up around their Communist Party which has made itself indivisible from the whole, could not be removed without plunging the country back into civil war. I stand by that impression Cass.

How do you remove a power structure whose tentacles reach into everything?

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cassowary
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Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by cassowary » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:13 am

neverfail wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:30 am
cassowary wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:01 am
The Taiwanese speak Hokkien, the same as my ancestral language. I don't think the different languages matter so much anymore. Over the years the Chinese has developed a common culture and Mandarin is today widespread on the mainland - thanks to Communist government efforts to unify the language.

India also has many languages and they seem to do alright.
Please excuse me for mistaking the name of language of Taiwan.

India may now be doing all right but Taiwan has still dome much better.

Modern China, built up around their Communist Party which has made itself indivisible from the whole, could not be removed without plunging the country back into civil war. I stand by that impression Cass.

How do you remove a power structure whose tentacles reach into everything?
It came close to collapse at Tiananmen. That stupid Bush should have supported the students and placed sanctions. That would have locked out the CCP. I Guess he under estimated Asian people. He didn’t realise that China will become a threat.

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Sertorio
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Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by Sertorio » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:49 am

cassowary wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:13 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:30 am
cassowary wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:01 am
The Taiwanese speak Hokkien, the same as my ancestral language. I don't think the different languages matter so much anymore. Over the years the Chinese has developed a common culture and Mandarin is today widespread on the mainland - thanks to Communist government efforts to unify the language.

India also has many languages and they seem to do alright.
Please excuse me for mistaking the name of language of Taiwan.

India may now be doing all right but Taiwan has still dome much better.

Modern China, built up around their Communist Party which has made itself indivisible from the whole, could not be removed without plunging the country back into civil war. I stand by that impression Cass.

How do you remove a power structure whose tentacles reach into everything?
It came close to collapse at Tiananmen. That stupid Bush should have supported the students and placed sanctions. That would have locked out the CCP. I Guess he under estimated Asian people. He didn’t realise that China will become a threat.
I doubt China will be a democracy in any foreseeable future. Chinese ethics are based on Confucianism, not Christianity, and Confucianism can generate an ethical form of government which is not democratic. For thousands of years that seems to have been satisfactory enough for the Chinese, so why change it now?

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Milo
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Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by Milo » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:23 am

cassowary wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:13 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:30 am
cassowary wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:01 am
The Taiwanese speak Hokkien, the same as my ancestral language. I don't think the different languages matter so much anymore. Over the years the Chinese has developed a common culture and Mandarin is today widespread on the mainland - thanks to Communist government efforts to unify the language.

India also has many languages and they seem to do alright.
Please excuse me for mistaking the name of language of Taiwan.

India may now be doing all right but Taiwan has still dome much better.

Modern China, built up around their Communist Party which has made itself indivisible from the whole, could not be removed without plunging the country back into civil war. I stand by that impression Cass.

How do you remove a power structure whose tentacles reach into everything?
It came close to collapse at Tiananmen. That stupid Bush should have supported the students and placed sanctions. That would have locked out the CCP. I Guess he under estimated Asian people. He didn’t realise that China will become a threat.
Who knows? I felt at the time that Bush was right: better to let China figure it out on their own. I think many are surprised at the longevity of China's totalitarian system.

Hopefully they will create a more democratic system one of these days, I have a feeling that we have to wait for Xi to go.

The thing about a "for life" leader is that the entire system fades a little when he dies. That is what China will confront when Xi dies.

neverfail
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Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by neverfail » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:36 pm

cassowary wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:13 am
It came close to collapse at Tiananmen.
Did it? No, even at the time I did not get the impression that the Chinese Communist party was a spent force.

Having stated that, I was unpleasantly surprised that the ruling committee did not at least offer the demonstrators some concessions. Instead, they sent in the tanks.

It did not happen immediately. Apparently the ruling committee of the CCP, confronted with an unprecedented situation debated for days among themselves about what to do. With each passing day of vacillation the crowd at Tiananmen Square kept on growing bigger.
cassowary wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:13 am
That stupid Bush should have supported the students and placed sanctions.


Bush was not stupid; just very cautious. Some may even say he was overcautious. The demonstrators did not represent an alternative government (backed by a party organisation and with clear leadership) waiting in the wings to assume the responsibility of government. It was just a spontaneously assembled crowd spearheaded by idealistic youth who had also underestimated the lethal ruthlessness country's leadership was capable of. They were NOT dealing with Mikhail Gorbachev; that was their fatal error of judgement.

Bush was diplomatically correct in not wishing to run the political risk of backing the demonstrators; yet I agree that he still could have signalled disapproval of the Tiananmen Square carnage by at least temporarily imposing sanctions on the PRC. Other Western countries would then surely have followed suit. His failure to do so must have as much as signalled the PRC leadership that it is okay to commit human rights abuses against their own people - and it would still be business as usual thereafter.

cassowary wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:13 am
. I Guess he under estimated Asian people. He didn’t realise that China will become a threat.
Of course he did not see it as an emerging threat cass: nor did anyone else at the time (least of all we out here). Since Mao's demise China had developed the image (outwardly at least) as being quite a friendly place and governments in The West, of course, wanted to encourage that welcome trend to continue.

neverfail
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Re: PRC policy operates at different levels

Post by neverfail » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:43 pm

Meantime, out here in Oz another PRC related scandal has emerged:

https://www.canberratimes.com.au/politi ... 50v6x.html

This time not a matter of covert harassment but of open influence buying. Seduction instead of rape. The ruling party in China will stop at nothing to achieve its objectives abroad (and also at home, of course).

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SteveFoerster
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Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by SteveFoerster » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:49 pm

neverfail wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:33 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:06 am


We are supposed to be a rational species, but how rational is the deep hatred some people show at the address of Russia and China? Chinese and Russians are people like us. Their needs and aspirations are similar to ours. They are as capable as we are of good and evil deeds. Their governments are no better no worse than ours.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

If you believe that twaddle then you must hold to a very low standard as to what constitutes good government.
For all the faults of the U.S., I can criticise it and sleep soundly at night just a few kilometres from the White House. If the Xi and Putin regimes were no worse, a Chinese and a Russian would be able to do the same in Moscow or Beijing, but we all know that's not the case.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

neverfail
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Re: PRC harassment abroad: the regime that will stop at nothing to get its own way.

Post by neverfail » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:18 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:49 pm

For all the faults of the U.S., I can criticise it and sleep soundly at night just a few kilometres from the White House. If the Xi and Putin regimes were no worse, a Chinese and a Russian would be able to do the same in Moscow or Beijing, but we all know that's not the case.
Well, I suppose a Russian or a Chinese could do the same - as long as he voiced his criticisms to a blank wall making sure first of all that no one was within hearing range. :mrgreen:

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