Trump’s threats and scoldings have got NATO countries to increase defence spending,

Discussion of current events
User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 2387
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Trump’s threats and scoldings have got NATO countries to increase defence spending,

Post by Sertorio » Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:44 am

Milo wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:56 pm
neverfail wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:29 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:49 pm
There is no evidence out there that Singapore won't do what it believes is best for Singaporeans. Should there be military conflict in E/SE Asia, I'm guessing that Singapore will take the WWII stance of Switzerland - stay out of it, while protecting its borders - especially against envious Muslim interests.
Provided that circumstances allowed it to remain neutral- not a guarantee..

During a global conflagration on the scale of WW2, all bets are off.
Singapore has always had close alliances with the UK and US. They already picked their side.
The only side to pick is the side of peaceful coexistence. China is too big and its economy too large, to be ignored and even less antagonized. China's influence in Asia is unavoidable, but it doesn't have to be seen as aggressive. The only solution is keeping normal, friendly relations with China, and do normal business with it. Trying to use the US as a counterweight to China is definitely the wrong thing to do. The US will not be able to neutralize China's influence, and such a game can only generate conflicts which the Asian countries cannot afford. If China's legitimate interests are not threatened, it will not threaten anybody, but that can only be achieved by leaving the US very much out of the Asian affairs.

neverfail
Posts: 3279
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: Trump’s threats and scoldings have got NATO countries to increase defence spending,

Post by neverfail » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:18 am

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:44 am

The only side to pick is the side of peaceful coexistence. China is too big and its economy too large, to be ignored and even less antagonized. China's influence in Asia is unavoidable, but it doesn't have to be seen as aggressive. The only solution is keeping normal, friendly relations with China, and do normal business with it. Trying to use the US as a counterweight to China is definitely the wrong thing to do. The US will not be able to neutralize China's influence, and such a game can only generate conflicts which the Asian countries cannot afford. If China's legitimate interests are not threatened, it will not threaten anybody, but that can only be achieved by leaving the US very much out of the Asian affairs.
Yeah sure; and then the PRC can walk over all of us unopposed. That's brilliant, sertorio!

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 2387
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Trump’s threats and scoldings have got NATO countries to increase defence spending,

Post by Sertorio » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:02 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:18 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:44 am

The only side to pick is the side of peaceful coexistence. China is too big and its economy too large, to be ignored and even less antagonized. China's influence in Asia is unavoidable, but it doesn't have to be seen as aggressive. The only solution is keeping normal, friendly relations with China, and do normal business with it. Trying to use the US as a counterweight to China is definitely the wrong thing to do. The US will not be able to neutralize China's influence, and such a game can only generate conflicts which the Asian countries cannot afford. If China's legitimate interests are not threatened, it will not threaten anybody, but that can only be achieved by leaving the US very much out of the Asian affairs.
Yeah sure; and then the PRC can walk over all of us unopposed. That's brilliant, sertorio!
Why would China "walk over all of you"? What would it gain by doing it? Contrarily to the US - and the UK in the 19th century - China may need partners, but it doesn't need vassals.

User avatar
SteveFoerster
Posts: 1989
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:17 pm
Location: Northern Virginia, USA and Dominica, West Indies
Contact:

Re: Trump’s threats and scoldings have got NATO countries to increase defence spending,

Post by SteveFoerster » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:45 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:44 am
Milo wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:56 pm
neverfail wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:29 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:49 pm
There is no evidence out there that Singapore won't do what it believes is best for Singaporeans. Should there be military conflict in E/SE Asia, I'm guessing that Singapore will take the WWII stance of Switzerland - stay out of it, while protecting its borders - especially against envious Muslim interests.
Provided that circumstances allowed it to remain neutral- not a guarantee..

During a global conflagration on the scale of WW2, all bets are off.
Singapore has always had close alliances with the UK and US. They already picked their side.
The only side to pick is the side of peaceful coexistence. China is too big and its economy too large, to be ignored and even less antagonized. China's influence in Asia is unavoidable, but it doesn't have to be seen as aggressive.
Of course it doesn't have to be seen that way... one can always close one's eyes, as you have.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 2387
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Trump’s threats and scoldings have got NATO countries to increase defence spending,

Post by Sertorio » Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:27 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:45 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:44 am
Milo wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:56 pm
neverfail wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:29 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:49 pm
There is no evidence out there that Singapore won't do what it believes is best for Singaporeans. Should there be military conflict in E/SE Asia, I'm guessing that Singapore will take the WWII stance of Switzerland - stay out of it, while protecting its borders - especially against envious Muslim interests.
Provided that circumstances allowed it to remain neutral- not a guarantee..

During a global conflagration on the scale of WW2, all bets are off.
Singapore has always had close alliances with the UK and US. They already picked their side.
The only side to pick is the side of peaceful coexistence. China is too big and its economy too large, to be ignored and even less antagonized. China's influence in Asia is unavoidable, but it doesn't have to be seen as aggressive.
Of course it doesn't have to be seen that way... one can always close one's eyes, as you have.
Which Asian countries are actually threatened by China? Name one.

User avatar
Doc
Posts: 2592
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:09 pm
Location: Cradle To Grave

Re: Trump’s threats and scoldings have got NATO countries to increase defence spending,

Post by Doc » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:48 am

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:45 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:07 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:40 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:56 pm
https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... es/564881/

It's Not Just About the Money
NATO is simply the US instrument of imperial power. It is useless for Europe. If European countries decided to create their own defense instrument, and forget about NATO, they would have a better military and they would be their own masters. Russia spends less money in defense than the European countries put together, and it has a credible military, while Europe doesn't.
Russia has a vast thermonuclear arsenal inherited from the USSR. Now that the UK is withdrawing (along with its midget t.n. arsonal) Europe only has the small French one at its disposal for defence. Not a match for the Russian one. Only the USA can do that.
Nothing would stop Europe acquiring tactical nuclear weapons, which is all that is necessary. Nobody will ever use strategic nuclear weapons, knowing what the consequences would be. If that's the purpose of the alliance with the US, forget it. It is worthless. In any future war among the more developed countries, the objective is not destroying eachother's cities, nor occupying enemy territory. It is destroying the enemy's military assets. For that only tactical nuclear weapons are useful.

General William Tecumseh Sherman to the Mayor and Councilmen of Atlanta

http://rjgeib.com/thoughts/sherman/sher ... lanta.html
HEADQUARTERS MILITARY DIVISION of the MISSISSIPPI in the FIELD
Atlanta, Georgia,
James M. Calhoun, Mayor,
E.E. Rawson and S.C. Wells, representing City Council of Atlanta.

Gentleman: I have your letter of the 11th, in the nature of a petition to revoke my orders removing all the inhabitants from Atlanta. I have read it carefully, and give full credit to your statements of distress that will be occasioned, and yet shall not revoke my orders, because they were not designed to meet the humanities of the cause, but to prepare for the future struggles in which millions of good people outside of Atlanta have a deep interest. We must have peace, not only at Atlanta, but in all America. To secure this, we must stop the war that now desolates our once happy and favored country. To stop war, we must defeat the rebel armies which are arrayed against the laws and Constitution that all must respect and obey. To defeat those armies, we must prepare the way to reach them in their recesses, provided with the arms and instruments which enable us to accomplish our purpose. Now, I know the vindictive nature of our enemy, that we may have many years of military operations from this quarter; and, therefore, deem it wise and prudent to prepare in time. The use of Atlanta for warlike purposes in inconsistent with its character as a home for families. There will be no manufacturers, commerce, or agriculture here, for the maintenance of families, and sooner or later want will compel the inhabitants to go. Why not go now, when all the arrangements are completed for the transfer, instead of waiting till the plunging shot of contending armies will renew the scenes of the past month? Of course, I do not apprehend any such things at this moment, but you do not suppose this army will be here until the war is over. I cannot discuss this subject with you fairly, because I cannot impart to you what we propose to do, but I assert that our military plans make it necessary for the inhabitants to go away, and I can only renew my offer of services to make their exodus in any direction as easy and comfortable as possible.

You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace. But you cannot have peace and a division of our country. If the United States submits to a division now, it will not stop, but will go on until we reap the fate of Mexico, which is eternal war. The United States does and must assert its authority, wherever it once had power; for, if it relaxes one bit to pressure, it is gone, and I believe that such is the national feeling. This feeling assumes various shapes, but always comes back to that of Union. Once admit the Union, once more acknowledge the authority of the national Government, and, instead of devoting your houses and streets and roads to the dread uses of war, I and this army become at once your protectors and supporters, shielding you from danger, let it come from what quarter it may. I know that a few individuals cannot resist a torrent of error and passion, such as swept the South into rebellion, but you can point out, so that we may know those who desire a government, and those who insist on war and its desolation.

You might as well appeal against the thunder-storm as against these terrible hardships of war. They are inevitable, and the only way the people of Atlanta can hope once more to live in peace and quiet at home, is to stop the war, which can only be done by admitting that it began in error and is perpetuated in pride.

We don't want your Negroes, or your horses, or your lands, or any thing you have, but we do want and will have a just obedience to the laws of the United States. That we will have, and if it involved the destruction of your improvements, we cannot help it.

You have heretofore read public sentiment in your newspapers, that live by falsehood and excitement; and the quicker you seek for truth in other quarters, the better. I repeat then that, bu the original compact of government, the United States had certain rights in Georgia, which have never been relinquished and never will be; that the South began the war by seizing forts, arsenals, mints, custom-houses, etc., etc., long before Mr. Lincoln was installed, and before the South had one jot or title of provocation. I myself have seen in Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Mississippi, hundreds and thousands of women and children fleeing from your armies and desperadoes, hungry and with bleeding feet. In Memphis, Vicksburg, and Mississippi, we fed thousands and thousands of the families of rebel soldiers left on our hands, and whom we could not see starve. Now that war comes to you, you feel very different. You deprecate its horrors, but did not feel them when you sent car-loads of soldiers and ammunition, and moulded shells and shot, to carry war into Kentucky and Tennessee, to desolate the homes of hundreds and thousands of good people who only asked to live in peace at their old homes, and under the Government of their inheritance. But these comparisons are idle. I want peace, and believe it can only be reached through union and war, and I will ever conduct war with a view to perfect an early success.

But, my dear sirs, when peace does come, you may call on me for any thing. Then will I share with you the last cracker, and watch with you to shield your homes and families against danger from every quarter.

Now you must go, and take with you the old and feeble, feed and nurse them, and build for them, in more quiet places, proper habitations to shield them against the weather until the mad passions of men cool down, and allow the Union and peace once more to settle over your old homes in Atlanta. Yours in haste,

W.T. Sherman, Major-General commanding
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

User avatar
SteveFoerster
Posts: 1989
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:17 pm
Location: Northern Virginia, USA and Dominica, West Indies
Contact:

Re: Trump’s threats and scoldings have got NATO countries to increase defence spending,

Post by SteveFoerster » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:05 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:27 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:45 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:44 am
Milo wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:56 pm
neverfail wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:29 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:49 pm
There is no evidence out there that Singapore won't do what it believes is best for Singaporeans. Should there be military conflict in E/SE Asia, I'm guessing that Singapore will take the WWII stance of Switzerland - stay out of it, while protecting its borders - especially against envious Muslim interests.
Provided that circumstances allowed it to remain neutral- not a guarantee..

During a global conflagration on the scale of WW2, all bets are off.
Singapore has always had close alliances with the UK and US. They already picked their side.
The only side to pick is the side of peaceful coexistence. China is too big and its economy too large, to be ignored and even less antagonized. China's influence in Asia is unavoidable, but it doesn't have to be seen as aggressive.
Of course it doesn't have to be seen that way... one can always close one's eyes, as you have.
Which Asian countries are actually threatened by China? Name one.
I'll name six: Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei, and the Philippines, because China's ridiculous nine-dash line attempts to lay claim to some of the EEZs of all of them; and Taiwan for reasons obvious to anyone who's being honest.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 2387
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Trump’s threats and scoldings have got NATO countries to increase defence spending,

Post by Sertorio » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:38 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:05 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:27 am

Which Asian countries are actually threatened by China? Name one.
I'll name six: Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei, and the Philippines, because China's ridiculous nine-dash line attempts to lay claim to some of the EEZs of all of them; and Taiwan for reasons obvious to anyone who's being honest.
Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei, and the Philippines are not threatened. Their EEZ do not depend on some tiny rocks in the ocean, which may belong to them or not. And Taiwan is not a country. It is part of the PRC, as the US has recognized...

neverfail
Posts: 3279
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: Trump’s threats and scoldings have got NATO countries to increase defence spending,

Post by neverfail » Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:03 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:38 am
Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei, and the Philippines are not threatened. Their EEZ do not depend on some tiny rocks in the ocean, which may belong to them or not.
Why is the PRC militarising the artificial islands it has built atop of shoals and reefs (at considerable expense) other than to (at the least) intimidate and cow these countries into toeing their policy line?
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:38 am
And Taiwan is not a country. It is part of the PRC, as the US has recognized...
It deserves to be considered a country and treated as such more than the majority of dysfunctional banana republics who hold seats in the UN General Assembly. I despise the governments of countries (including my own and the USA) who, in their anxiety to do business with the PRC took the path of self-serving expediency and bowed to the PRC demand that the price of joint recognition is that the foreign government making application must recognize Taiwan as part of PRC sovereignty.

As in this case what is "official" and what is real can be two different, diametrically opposed, things.

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 2387
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Trump’s threats and scoldings have got NATO countries to increase defence spending,

Post by Sertorio » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:51 am

neverfail wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:03 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:38 am
Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei, and the Philippines are not threatened. Their EEZ do not depend on some tiny rocks in the ocean, which may belong to them or not.
Why is the PRC militarising the artificial islands it has built atop of shoals and reefs (at considerable expense) other than to (at the least) intimidate and cow these countries into toeing their policy line?
I don't see any of those countries being intimidated and cowed into toeing China's policy. By the way, what policy are they being cowed into toeing? The only country I know which intimidates and cows other countries into toeing their policies, is the US. As we have seen with Canada and Europe...

Post Reply