Blue or Red Wave?

Discussion of current events
neverfail
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Re: Voter Fraud in glass house Australia

Post by neverfail » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:51 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:42 am


"Overwhelming majority of Australians believe federal politicians are corrupt"
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... re-corrupt

(Blush)

But not to worry, neverfail. Barely half of Australians can name the PM. Democratic integrity is obviously not a concern among your compatriots.
Politically, Australia has temporarily descended into one of our periodic nadir's ; with low quality government far too preoccupied with the public opinion polls and its own reelection prospects. I have known one or two times like that in the past. Hence the regular turnover of prime ministers. I can understand why many of us cannot name the current PM - they keep coming and going in rapid succession. Our institutions of government are sound though even as the players within act like bumbling fools.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: "good ol’ American exceptionalism." - a substandard, malfunctioning electoral system?

Post by SteveFoerster » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:01 pm

cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:28 am
What's wrong with voter ID? Are you saying that the Native Americans are incapable of obtaining ID when Whites can? That is racist. Voter ID is to prevent cheating from the Democrats. They are the party of cheaters.
The issue isn't requiring a state ID, it's requiring a state ID with a street address when you know that Native Americans on the reservation don't have those and white voters in town do. And yeah, that is racist, but oppositely from what you clumsily imply. And there is a party of cheaters involved, but in this particular case it's not the Democrats.
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cassowary
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Re: Blue or Red Wave?

Post by cassowary » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:13 pm

Welcome to the Banana Republic of Florida ... By Roger Simon
Considering what’s going on for the umpteenth time in the República Bananera de Florida, the caravans of how many thousands making their way from Central America to our Southern border should be going in reverse.

We’re Honduras now.

No Banana Republic — past or present — could really outdo Florida when it comes to electoral corruption. After all, the population of the Sunshine State is roughly the same as the populations of Honduras, El Salvador, and Nicaragua combined. It’s also larger than the population of Guatemala by itself.

Too bad Garcia Márquez is dead and can’t write another novel like One Hundred Years of Solitude to describe life in Florida as he did of Colombia when it was hugely corrupt. He could win a second Nobel Prize. (Yes, I know the author was a Castro crony, but nobody’s perfect.)

So who’s responsible for this nauseating state of affairs? The Democrats, no surprise, behave as if Boss Tweed were reincarnated in Miami Beach, bringing down their best Fusion GPS lawyer from the Perkins Coie mafia of Trump dossier fame to oversee the recount.

As long as you’re on the “correct” side of things, by any means necessary, right?

But the GOP hasn’t got clean hands either. Rick Scott and his fellow Republicans cry foul when the election supervisors of Broward and Palm Beach counties act in a manner that would make Mayor Daley blush, but aren’t they a little late?

Where have these GOP pols been for the last several decades? This is nothing new. Voter irregularities are as common in Florida as hurricanes — and probably more toxic in the long run. Why, for godsakes, does the woman in Broward still have that job?

Scott’s been the governor for quite a while. Shouldn’t he have done something about this long ago? Don’t they remember the famous quote attributed to Stalin — even though it may be apocryphal, it’s true — “It’s not the people who vote that count. It’s the people who count the votes“?

Which brings us to a larger question. It’s not just Florida. Voting in this supposedly great democratic republic of ours is a national disgrace. A country that put a man on the moon nearly fifty years ago can’t invent a foolproof voting machine?

Something’s wrong here — and it’s most likely deliberately wrong. Too many people don’t want to get it right. It may be the old story of the Evil Party and the Stupid Party.

And besides the failure to employ foolproof machinery, voter registration is riddled with fraud in many areas. The Election Law Center has labored mightily against this, but they often seem to be fighting uphill or, more disturbingly, alone.

One of the more insidious ideas on the part of some is that you shouldn’t need a verifiable state-issued ID to register. These same “progressives” would have a fit if they learned their next airplane flight took such a laissez-faire approach, but that’s the way things are nowadays. Hypocrisy is pro forma.

Speaking of which, it’s also despicably racist to assume blacks and Latinos are too inept or clueless to obtain IDs. This is just the tip of a particularly depressing ice berg.

A lot of digital ink has been spilled in the last two years on the putative influence the Russians, Chinese and even the Iranians have had on our elections. Whatever the impact of all this, it’s almost meaningless unless we have real election integrity of our own. Might as well give them free rein. Maybe Putin could run the machines for us. It’s cheaper.

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Doc
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Re: Blue or Red Wave?

Post by Doc » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:30 pm

neverfail wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:41 pm
It is what I KNOW doc. So what are you trying to prove?
You are in a minority in Australia..
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

neverfail
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Re: Blue or Red Wave?

Post by neverfail » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:37 am

Doc wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:30 pm
neverfail wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:41 pm
It is what I KNOW doc. So what are you trying to prove?
You are in a minority in Australia..
:lol:

Which minority do you assume I belong to doc: Aboriginal? Jewish? Chinese?

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cassowary
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Re: "good ol’ American exceptionalism." - a substandard, malfunctioning electoral system?

Post by cassowary » Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:58 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:01 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:28 am
What's wrong with voter ID? Are you saying that the Native Americans are incapable of obtaining ID when Whites can? That is racist. Voter ID is to prevent cheating from the Democrats. They are the party of cheaters.
The issue isn't requiring a state ID, it's requiring a state ID with a street address when you know that Native Americans on the reservation don't have those and white voters in town do. And yeah, that is racist, but oppositely from what you clumsily imply. And there is a party of cheaters involved, but in this particular case it's not the Democrats.
We are talking about two different things. First, the Voter ID law and the rule about having a residential address have both been challenged in court. It went all the way to the Supreme Court which allowed the state law to stand.

In the case of Florida, if the allegations are true, what they are doing is totally illegal. Brenda Snipes has a dubious history of cheating. So the circumstances with regards to this long delay in counting with votes keep being discovered is very suspicious.

The second point is whether the residential address rule in North Dakota prevents Red Indians from voting. According to left-leaning Politifact that Democrats love, the residential address rule does not stop any native American from voting even if they live in the reservation.

What it does is to make it more troublesome to vote. The purpose of having a rule requiring a residential address is to prevent cheating. Some people might vote twice. So you got to weigh the good with the bad. Also, the state of N Dakota was working out with Native American groups to allow tribal chiefs to issue Voter ID papers to prove citizenship.
Tribal officials can issue a tribal voting letter with the eligible voter's name, date of birth and residential address at polling locations on reservations.
I hope that solved the problem.

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cassowary
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Re: Blue or Red Wave?

Post by cassowary » Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:03 am

On another matter, even homeless people can vote.

They don't have any address either.

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Milo
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Re: "good ol’ American exceptionalism." - a substandard, malfunctioning electoral system?

Post by Milo » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:45 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:58 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:01 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:28 am
What's wrong with voter ID? Are you saying that the Native Americans are incapable of obtaining ID when Whites can? That is racist. Voter ID is to prevent cheating from the Democrats. They are the party of cheaters.
The issue isn't requiring a state ID, it's requiring a state ID with a street address when you know that Native Americans on the reservation don't have those and white voters in town do. And yeah, that is racist, but oppositely from what you clumsily imply. And there is a party of cheaters involved, but in this particular case it's not the Democrats.
We are talking about two different things. First, the Voter ID law and the rule about having a residential address have both been challenged in court. It went all the way to the Supreme Court which allowed the state law to stand.

In the case of Florida, if the allegations are true, what they are doing is totally illegal. Brenda Snipes has a dubious history of cheating. So the circumstances with regards to this long delay in counting with votes keep being discovered is very suspicious.

The second point is whether the residential address rule in North Dakota prevents Red Indians from voting. According to left-leaning Politifact that Democrats love, the residential address rule does not stop any native American from voting even if they live in the reservation.

What it does is to make it more troublesome to vote. The purpose of having a rule requiring a residential address is to prevent cheating. Some people might vote twice. So you got to weigh the good with the bad. Also, the state of N Dakota was working out with Native American groups to allow tribal chiefs to issue Voter ID papers to prove citizenship.
Tribal officials can issue a tribal voting letter with the eligible voter's name, date of birth and residential address at polling locations on reservations.
I hope that solved the problem.
It's very simple Cass.

Voter fraud by individuals does not, cannot ever pay.

Think about it, how would it ever be worth it to have someone vote once at one place and then travel to another to vote again? How could you pay them off enough to make it worth it for them to do and for you, the putative mastermind?

That's assuming it's even going on, which it isn't:
The Brennan Center's seminal report "The Truth About Voter Fraud" conclusively demonstrated most allegations of fraud turn out to be baseless — and that of the few allegations remaining, most reveal election irregularities and other forms of election misconduct. And numerous other studies have reached the same conclusion.
https://www.brennancenter.org/issues/voter-fraud

However, suppressing votes can pay off quite a bit:
Old jokes have lately been finding renewed salience. Literacy tests, poll taxes, and grandfather clauses, once the most common mechanisms for disadvantaging minority voters, have been consigned to the history books, but one need look no further than the governor’s race in Georgia to see their modern equivalents in action. The race between the Republican, Brian Kemp, Georgia’s secretary of state, and the Democrat, Stacey Abrams, the former minority leader of the state House of Representatives—who, if she wins, will be the first black female governor in the country—is a virtual tie. But Kemp has invoked the so-called exact-match law to suspend fifty-three thousand voter-registration applications, for infractions as minor as a hyphen missing from a surname. African-Americans make up thirty-two per cent of the state’s population, but they represent nearly seventy per cent of the suspended applications.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/201 ... 008855002/

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Doc
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Re: Blue or Red Wave?

Post by Doc » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:38 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:37 am
Doc wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:30 pm
neverfail wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:41 pm
It is what I KNOW doc. So what are you trying to prove?
You are in a minority in Australia..
:lol:

Which minority do you assume I belong to doc: Aboriginal? Jewish? Chinese?
According to Jim's link the minority that believes everything is fine and all is well in Australia concerning politics.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... re-corrupt
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

neverfail
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Re: Blue or Red Wave?

Post by neverfail » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:01 pm

Doc wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:38 am
neverfail wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:37 am
Doc wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:30 pm
neverfail wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:41 pm
It is what I KNOW doc. So what are you trying to prove?
You are in a minority in Australia..
:lol:

Which minority do you assume I belong to doc: Aboriginal? Jewish? Chinese?
According to Jim's link the minority that believes everything is fine and all is well in Australia concerning politics.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... re-corrupt
:D Ohh, I see! Well, considering that majority opinion once held that the earth is flat, I am not fazed when accused of going against majority opinion. :lol:

Doc, you and Jim are trying to compare apples with oranges. The column I quoted
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal ... 50es9.html
was comparing the greater integrity and efficiency by which governments are elected in Australia with the shonky one used in the US. It did not try to pretend that once elected some (not all) of our elected public officials then go on to get up to some quite reprehensible tricks; to the detriment of public trust and confidence.

Please re-read the article and be edified, if you dare.
It couldn’t be more different in the US. Every election year, reports emerge of voter suppression efforts and problems on election day and with the count afterwards, that could be incompetence or malevolence or perhaps both.

The US bills itself as the “greatest democracy on Earth” but that’s just good ol’ American exceptionalism. It’s one of the world’s oldest and most enduring democracies but the most democratic, it ain’t.

It doesn’t help that elections in the US are held on a Tuesday, when most people have work or college. While most states offer early voting, some do not. Changing the day elections are held could require a constitutional amendment, but making it a holiday would not.

It gets far worse. Voters are routinely purged from the US electoral rolls on flimsy grounds. In Australia, it’s compulsory to enrol and the Australian Electoral Commission has the power to add you to the electoral roll or update your address rather than remove you.

In the US voters are often turned away from polling stations because of inadequate ID or a mismatch in the way the address is formatted. In Australia, we verbally confirm our name and address. Inquiries have rejected adding an ID requirement because it would inconvenience and disenfranchise voters, and reports of fraud are low anyway.

If the US were a developing country, we’d send in international observers to monitor whether the elections were 'fair and free'.

The actual process of voting in the US is tedious and time consuming. Every election there are reports of huge lines because of broken machines, inadequate staff or some other stuff-up. This year some voters reportedly waited up to five hours. Such civic determination is noble, but the evidence is long wait times suppresses voter turnout in future elections. Black voters have to wait twice as long as white voters on average, the Joint Centre for Political and Economic Studies has found.

When voters do manage to get on the roll, get time off work, make it to the front of the line, and cast their vote, they’re doing so in a rigged system. In the US, there is not one electoral system but 50 different ones and in many states redistricting is a partisan process – that is, the elected representatives do it themselves, like putting the proverbial foxes in charge of the hen house. As a result, the system is full of gerrymanders.

In Australia, electoral boundaries are set by the AEC and its state counterparts and while parties can make submissions, they don’t get final say.

Joh Bjelke-Petersen’s famous gerrymander, which kept Labor out of power in Queensland for more than three decades, is the shameful exception rather than the rule. It ended in 1989 but it’s still wheeled out as Exhibit A.

So why is it so much better in Australia?

First, let’s hear it for the AEC. In the US almost every public official from president down to dog catcher is elected, so everything is partisan. Australians should be grateful to have a well regarded, independent agency doing the job – and resist all attempts to politicise any part of the public service, because it’s a slippery slope and the AEC might be next.

Then there’s compulsory voting. Many Americans consider it anathema to liberty but Australians generally consider voting to be a responsibility as well as a right - and take the pragmatic view that it’s easily avoided for those with a strong aversion.

The net effect is positive because candidates don’t need to focus on the get-out-the-vote effort. This lessens the influence of money on politics and means parties need policies to win the middle ground rather than galvanise their bases – so it’s a counterforce to political polarisation.

And in a system where everyone is expected to vote, the apparatus of the state will enable you to vote. As US experience makes clear, we can’t take that for granted.

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