A dithering Obama emboldened China

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cassowary
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by cassowary » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:24 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:38 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:00 am
Christianity has a way of bringing the concept of human rights into society unlike Socialism. The pro democracy movements that toppled dictatorships in Taiwan and S Korea were led by Christians.

Maybe the Christian lamb will tame the red dragon.
I'm afraid that history doesn't support such a sanguine view of Christianity overall, though.
History does support this sanguine view of Christianity. Don't let the bad episodes of Christian violence deceive you from the bigger picture of how Christianity beliefs developed human rights (or natural rights as it was then called) through the centuries.

I recommend you read this book, "The Idea of Natural Rights", by Brian Tierney.

Tierney explained that the first treatise of human rights came from William of Ockham's hilarious quarrel with the Pope who tried to pull rank. William told the Pope off telling him that all human had God-given rights (Ius Naturale or natural rights) that no one, not even the Pope, can take away.

This concept floated down the centuries and found its way into the American Declaration of Independence. Its a long story. So read the book. Or you can read an essay I wrote some time ago which touched on it:

Christianity and Human Rights

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SteveFoerster
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by SteveFoerster » Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:44 pm

So, other than the fourth through the twenty-first centuries, the history of Christianity was perfectly peaceful? If you're going to credit the good aspects of Western civilisation to Christianity, it's also on the hook for its ill aspects, particularly its centuries of chattel slavery.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
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neverfail
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by neverfail » Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:46 pm

cassowary wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:24 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:38 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:00 am
Christianity has a way of bringing the concept of human rights into society unlike Socialism. The pro democracy movements that toppled dictatorships in Taiwan and S Korea were led by Christians.

Maybe the Christian lamb will tame the red dragon.
I'm afraid that history doesn't support such a sanguine view of Christianity overall, though.
History does support this sanguine view of Christianity. Don't let the bad episodes of Christian violence deceive you from the bigger picture of how Christianity beliefs developed human rights (or natural rights as it was then called) through the centuries.

I recommend you read this book, "The Idea of Natural Rights", by Brian Tierney.

Tierney explained that the first treatise of human rights came from William of Ockham's hilarious quarrel with the Pope who tried to pull rank. William told the Pope off telling him that all human had God-given rights (Ius Naturale or natural rights) that no one, not even the Pope, can take away.

This concept floated down the centuries and found its way into the American Declaration of Independence. Its a long story. So read the book. Or you can read an essay I wrote some time ago which touched on it:

Christianity and Human Rights
Neither Buddha nor Confucius nor Lao Tzu even hinted at human rights. Nor did Mohammad. Least of all did Karl Marx who was big on the workers taking over the means of production but void on the concept that even workers would have individual human rights.

In the life, teachings and example of Jesus Christ I can see where the seeds of human rights were first sown.
Philippians 2:3-8 ESV / 95 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. ...
Quite novel this precept that the leader ought to be of service to his people instead of their ruler.

Far from universally accepted even today.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by SteveFoerster » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:11 am

Interpersonal ethics are hardly the exclusive province of Christianity.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc2.htm
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by Mr. Perfect » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:27 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:44 pm
So, other than the fourth through the twenty-first centuries, the history of Christianity was perfectly peaceful? If you're going to credit the good aspects of Western civilisation to Christianity, it's also on the hook for its ill aspects, particularly its centuries of chattel slavery.
You have to tie the actual actions to Christianity itself, that is biblical teachings.

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cassowary
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by cassowary » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:46 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:44 pm
So, other than the fourth through the twenty-first centuries, the history of Christianity was perfectly peaceful? If you're going to credit the good aspects of Western civilisation to Christianity, it's also on the hook for its ill aspects, particularly its centuries of chattel slavery.
As I said, don't let the misdeeds of Christians blind you to the overall trajectory of Christian civilization - which was to make humanity more civilized over the centuries.

As for slavery, Christianity's record of slavery is better than you think. Don't forget it started as a faith of the downtrodden in the Roman empire. It was the religion of slaves and women. Christian ideas alleviated the sufferings of the slaves. There was actually two periods of abolishment movements. The first started in the late Roman empire which improved the treatment of slaves and later after the Roman empire fell in the west, abolished it altogether. By the 11th century, there was no more slavery in western Europe.

An example of an early abolitionist was St Bathilde. She was herself a slave. But in a fairy tale romance, she married King Clovis of the Franks.

The second started in the 18th century or perhaps earlier in response to the enslavement of the Africans. The enslavement of Africans did not start with the Europeans. There was already slavery there and European slavers simply bought those already enslaved by the Africans. Slavery did not end when Europeans abolished it. The British even contributed ships to stop slavery by Africans and Arabs. They put an end to it in the regions they colonized. But even today, slavery still exists in Africa long after the west abolished it. Mauritania is a good example.



No doubt abolitionists were inspired by the Bible:

Exodus 21:16  “Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.

Galatians 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

For those multiculturalists who say all cultures are equally good, ask yourself why there was no abolition movement in Islam. It is because Mohammed himself kept slaves. This inspires ISIS to capture sex slaves. Even today, you will find Imams defending slavery.

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Milo
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by Milo » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:11 am

China has had very significant Christian movements in the past and has them now.

I expect Christianity to take firm hold in China these days.

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cassowary
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by cassowary » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:43 pm

Milo wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:11 am
China has had very significant Christian movements in the past and has them now.

I expect Christianity to take firm hold in China these days.
I agree.

neverfail
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by neverfail » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:11 pm

cassowary wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:43 pm
Milo wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:11 am
China has had very significant Christian movements in the past and has them now.

I expect Christianity to take firm hold in China these days.
I agree.
I don't know about you guys, but I get the weird impression that, like the Roman Empire during the early centuries of Christianity (the catacombs period) before it, the PRC somewhat resembles an "incubator" for the spread of Christianity within.

neverfail
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by neverfail » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:12 pm

cassowary wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:46 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:44 pm
So, other than the fourth through the twenty-first centuries, the history of Christianity was perfectly peaceful? If you're going to credit the good aspects of Western civilisation to Christianity, it's also on the hook for its ill aspects, particularly its centuries of chattel slavery.
As I said, don't let the misdeeds of Christians blind you to the overall trajectory of Christian civilization - which was to make humanity more civilized over the centuries.

As for slavery, Christianity's record of slavery is better than you think. Don't forget it started as a faith of the downtrodden in the Roman empire. It was the religion of slaves and women. Christian ideas alleviated the sufferings of the slaves. There was actually two periods of abolishment movements. The first started in the late Roman empire which improved the treatment of slaves and later after the Roman empire fell in the west, abolished it altogether. By the 11th century, there was no more slavery in western Europe.

An example of an early abolitionist was St Bathilde. She was herself a slave. But in a fairy tale romance, she married King Clovis of the Franks.

The second started in the 18th century or perhaps earlier in response to the enslavement of the Africans. The enslavement of Africans did not start with the Europeans. There was already slavery there and European slavers simply bought those already enslaved by the Africans. Slavery did not end when Europeans abolished it. The British even contributed ships to stop slavery by Africans and Arabs. They put an end to it in the regions they colonized. But even today, slavery still exists in Africa long after the west abolished it. Mauritania is a good example.



No doubt abolitionists were inspired by the Bible:

Exodus 21:16  “Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.

Galatians 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

For those multiculturalists who say all cultures are equally good, ask yourself why there was no abolition movement in Islam. It is because Mohammed himself kept slaves. This inspires ISIS to capture sex slaves. Even today, you will find Imams defending slavery.
Your perspicasity moves me to admiration.

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