A dithering Obama emboldened China

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neverfail
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Re: US duplicity in its dealings with China?

Post by neverfail » Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:49 pm

cassowary wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:31 am
The nine-dash-line claim of China is a different matter as to its claim of the Islands, neverfail. The former claims the sea within the line belongs to China. This is far more serious than the Islands. It means that ships sailing through that large ocean must have Chinese permission. This could potentially block freedom of navigation. It should be regarded as international waters.

The Nine Dash Line
On 12 July 2016, an arbitral tribunal constituted under Annex VII to the 1982 United Nations Convention on Law of the Sea ruled that China has no legal basis to claim "historic rights" within its nine-dash line in a case brought by the Philippines. The tribunal judged that there was no evidence that China had historically exercised exclusive control over the waters or resources within the Nine-Dash Line. The ruling was rejected by both Taiwan and China.[15][16]
Cass, I do not disagree with the content of your post: only suggesting that Beijing may have an unrecognized ulterior motive for going to such pains to make the waters of the South China Sea exclusively its own. It relates directly to Taiwan's rival claim:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/20/worl ... h-sea.html

Way ahead of Beijing's ambition to become the great hegemonic power of Asia lies its obsession with finally ending the Chinese Civil War with the final absorption of Taiwan into the Chinese Motherland. PRC strategy seems to be to end Taiwan's rival claim to sovereignty by crowding it out of the region.

Another step in the decades long creeping encirclement of "the other China" with the ultimate goal of extinguishing its quasi-sovereignty for all time.

The (began in 1927 with the KMT massacre of Communist supporters outside Shanghai) Chinese civil war did not end with the evacuation of Chiang and his remnant KMT forces to the island -redoubt of Taiwan in 1949. It eventually petered out with a ceasefire but since them has assumed other forms - some of them rather bizarre.

In this the United States appears to have been playing a double game all along. On the one hand it acts as ultimate protector of Taiwanese independence by inserting a US naval flotilla into the Formosa strait every time the PRC appears to be gearing up to launch a seaborne invasion of the island (it did so as recently as 1995). On the other hand it recognizes the PRC government as the legitimate government and "Taiwan as part of China". There seems to be something very contradictory about the US position: which the PRC government could not fail to be aware of.

Could it be that the US foreign policy establishment is determined to keep Taiwan "alive" just in case mainland China (conforming to its past historical norm) eventually erupts in rebellion permitting Taiwan to re-enter the fray with a view to recovering what the KMT loss between 1946 and 1949?

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cassowary
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by cassowary » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:35 am

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:24 am
cassowary wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:26 pm
Sertorio,

Have you heard of the nine-dash-line? Anything within the red 9 dash line is what China is claiming in the South China Sea.

Image

I think it is ridiculous that China is claiming the sea so far away from its shores. This is the behavior of a bully.
If distance from the shores is so important, then Hawaii couldn't be part of the US... Nor the Malvinas be part of the UK...
Why not? The US does not claim the ocean in between Hawaii and the mainland beyond the standard 12 miles from the shore. China claims all the waters of the S China sea more than 12 miles from its shoreline.

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Sertorio
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by Sertorio » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:46 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:35 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:24 am
cassowary wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:26 pm
Sertorio,

Have you heard of the nine-dash-line? Anything within the red 9 dash line is what China is claiming in the South China Sea.

Image

I think it is ridiculous that China is claiming the sea so far away from its shores. This is the behavior of a bully.
If distance from the shores is so important, then Hawaii couldn't be part of the US... Nor the Malvinas be part of the UK...
Why not? The US does not claim the ocean in between Hawaii and the mainland beyond the standard 12 miles from the shore. China claims all the waters of the S China sea more than 12 miles from its shoreline.
Don't be a scaremonger. China would never interfere with the freedom of shipping in the South China Sea. Why would they, anyway?...

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cassowary
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by cassowary » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:47 am

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:46 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:35 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:24 am
cassowary wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:26 pm
Sertorio,

Have you heard of the nine-dash-line? Anything within the red 9 dash line is what China is claiming in the South China Sea.

Image

I think it is ridiculous that China is claiming the sea so far away from its shores. This is the behavior of a bully.
If distance from the shores is so important, then Hawaii couldn't be part of the US... Nor the Malvinas be part of the UK...
Why not? The US does not claim the ocean in between Hawaii and the mainland beyond the standard 12 miles from the shore. China claims all the waters of the S China sea more than 12 miles from its shoreline.
Don't be a scaremonger. China would never interfere with the freedom of shipping in the South China Sea. Why would they, anyway?...
To exert pressure on SE Asian countries so as to control them. You must understand the Chinese mentality. In their minds, they have suffered a great humiliation in the 19th and 20th centuries at the hands of foreign powers. They remembered their "glorious" imperial past when SE Asia and Korea were vassals of China. Their emperors saw themselves as the rightful ruler of the world. They want to recover what they lost, which they think is theirs by right.

Excerpt from last link:
The holy title of Chinese emperor was the Son of Heaven (Chinese: 天子; pinyin: tiānzǐ), a title much older than the Emperor of China which predates the Zhou dynasty and recognized as the ruler of "All under Heaven" (i.e., the whole world).
Xi sees himself as a modern-day emperor.

Erdogan wants the restore their "glorious" Ottoman past.
Radical Islamists want to restore Islam's golden age when they ruled from Portugal to India.
Putin wants to restore the Russianm empire.

So why are you surprised if the Chinese want to restore their empire? Just because empire building is out of fashion in Portugal does not mean it is out of fashion elsewhere in the world.

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Milo
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by Milo » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:58 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:47 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:46 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:35 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:24 am
cassowary wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:26 pm
Sertorio,

Have you heard of the nine-dash-line? Anything within the red 9 dash line is what China is claiming in the South China Sea.

Image

I think it is ridiculous that China is claiming the sea so far away from its shores. This is the behavior of a bully.
If distance from the shores is so important, then Hawaii couldn't be part of the US... Nor the Malvinas be part of the UK...
Why not? The US does not claim the ocean in between Hawaii and the mainland beyond the standard 12 miles from the shore. China claims all the waters of the S China sea more than 12 miles from its shoreline.
Don't be a scaremonger. China would never interfere with the freedom of shipping in the South China Sea. Why would they, anyway?...
To exert pressure on SE Asian countries so as to control them. You must understand the Chinese mentality. In their minds, they have suffered a great humiliation in the 19th and 20th centuries at the hands of foreign powers. They remembered their "glorious" imperial past when SE Asia and Korea were vassals of China. Their emperors saw themselves as the rightful ruler of the world. They want to recover what they lost, which they think is theirs by right.

Excerpt from last link:
The holy title of Chinese emperor was the Son of Heaven (Chinese: 天子; pinyin: tiānzǐ), a title much older than the Emperor of China which predates the Zhou dynasty and recognized as the ruler of "All under Heaven" (i.e., the whole world).
Xi sees himself as a modern-day emperor.

Erdogan wants the restore their "glorious" Ottoman past.
Radical Islamists want to restore Islam's golden age when they ruled from Portugal to India.
Putin wants to restore the Russianm empire.

So why are you surprised if the Chinese want to restore their empire? Just because empire building is out of fashion in Portugal does not mean it is out of fashion elsewhere in the world.
History is filled with slaughter that was not nipped in the bud because people expected others to be reasonable.

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Sertorio
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by Sertorio » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:04 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:47 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:46 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:35 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:24 am
cassowary wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:26 pm
Sertorio,

Have you heard of the nine-dash-line? Anything within the red 9 dash line is what China is claiming in the South China Sea.

Image

I think it is ridiculous that China is claiming the sea so far away from its shores. This is the behavior of a bully.
If distance from the shores is so important, then Hawaii couldn't be part of the US... Nor the Malvinas be part of the UK...
Why not? The US does not claim the ocean in between Hawaii and the mainland beyond the standard 12 miles from the shore. China claims all the waters of the S China sea more than 12 miles from its shoreline.
Don't be a scaremonger. China would never interfere with the freedom of shipping in the South China Sea. Why would they, anyway?...
To exert pressure on SE Asian countries so as to control them. You must understand the Chinese mentality. In their minds, they have suffered a great humiliation in the 19th and 20th centuries at the hands of foreign powers. They remembered their "glorious" imperial past when SE Asia and Korea were vassals of China. Their emperors saw themselves as the rightful ruler of the world. They want to recover what they lost, which they think is theirs by right.

Excerpt from last link:
The holy title of Chinese emperor was the Son of Heaven (Chinese: 天子; pinyin: tiānzǐ), a title much older than the Emperor of China which predates the Zhou dynasty and recognized as the ruler of "All under Heaven" (i.e., the whole world).
Xi sees himself as a modern-day emperor.

Erdogan wants the restore their "glorious" Ottoman past.
Radical Islamists want to restore Islam's golden age when they ruled from Portugal to India.
Putin wants to restore the Russianm empire.

So why are you surprised if the Chinese want to restore their empire? Just because empire building is out of fashion in Portugal does not mean it is out of fashion elsewhere in the world.
With the possible exception of the US, countries don't do stupid things just to "make themselves great again"... Interfering with shipping in the South China Sea wouldn't make China great again, and it would be pretty stupid, as China would suffer retaliation elsewhere in the world. Being Chinese yourself, you must know that the Chinese tend to be pretty rational people, having had 5,000 years to learn how to deal with other peoples...

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SteveFoerster
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by SteveFoerster » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:12 am

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:04 am
Being Chinese yourself, you must know that the Chinese tend to be pretty rational people, having had 5,000 years to learn how to deal with other peoples...
There are zero people, Chinese or otherwise, who are 5,000 years old, and you are oversimplifying and overestimating the positive impact of culture on living people's present decision making.

For example, perhaps the most important policy goal of the PRC is to reabsorb Taiwan. If they were so patient and wise, why didn't they use the return of Hong Kong and Macau as a means to reach that goal, by assiduously respecting their autonomy as a means of reassuring the Taiwanese that being a SAR would be safe?
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

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Sertorio
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by Sertorio » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:26 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:12 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:04 am
Being Chinese yourself, you must know that the Chinese tend to be pretty rational people, having had 5,000 years to learn how to deal with other peoples...
There are zero people, Chinese or otherwise, who are 5,000 years old, and you are oversimplifying and overestimating the positive impact of culture on living people's present decision making.

For example, perhaps the most important policy goal of the PRC is to reabsorb Taiwan. If they were so patient and wise, why didn't they use the return of Hong Kong and Macau as a means to reach that goal, by assiduously respecting their autonomy as a means of reassuring the Taiwanese that being a SAR would be safe?
Maybe because with Taiwan the US is always interfering and enabling the Taiwanese to refuse China's approaches...

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SteveFoerster
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by SteveFoerster » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:31 am

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:26 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:12 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:04 am
Being Chinese yourself, you must know that the Chinese tend to be pretty rational people, having had 5,000 years to learn how to deal with other peoples...
There are zero people, Chinese or otherwise, who are 5,000 years old, and you are oversimplifying and overestimating the positive impact of culture on living people's present decision making.

For example, perhaps the most important policy goal of the PRC is to reabsorb Taiwan. If they were so patient and wise, why didn't they use the return of Hong Kong and Macau as a means to reach that goal, by assiduously respecting their autonomy as a means of reassuring the Taiwanese that being a SAR would be safe?
Maybe because with Taiwan the US is always interfering and enabling the Taiwanese to refuse China's approaches...
If by that you mean protect themselves from being invaded by China, then yes, sales of military hardware have helped in that regard.

Also, you completely ignored my point.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

Jim the Moron
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by Jim the Moron » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:35 am

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:26 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:12 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:04 am
Being Chinese yourself, you must know that the Chinese tend to be pretty rational people, having had 5,000 years to learn how to deal with other peoples...
There are zero people, Chinese or otherwise, who are 5,000 years old, and you are oversimplifying and overestimating the positive impact of culture on living people's present decision making.

For example, perhaps the most important policy goal of the PRC is to reabsorb Taiwan. If they were so patient and wise, why didn't they use the return of Hong Kong and Macau as a means to reach that goal, by assiduously respecting their autonomy as a means of reassuring the Taiwanese that being a SAR would be safe?
Maybe because with Taiwan the US is always interfering and enabling the Taiwanese to refuse China's approaches...
Or, could it be, folks in Taiwan appreciate living in peace? Considering the alternative . . .

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