A dithering Obama emboldened China

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Sertorio
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by Sertorio » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:20 am

cassowary wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:49 am
Maybe the Xi regime can be brought down and replaced by something better.
Yes. Maybe Trump will become Chairman of the CCP. Which would reinforce Singapore's position as a vassal of the US...

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SteveFoerster
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:03 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:36 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:30 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:56 am
What right does the US have of trying to "contain" China in Asia? China has more right to influence the course of events in East Asia than the US. As long as China does not violate the Charter of the UN it may do whatever it wants, and it's up to other Asian nations to decide what type or relations they want to have with China. Once more the US is trying to play a role nobody assigned to it, that of a global policeman.
The Chinese government has exactly as much right as the U.S. to influence the course of events in East Asia: zero. If it's up to other Asian nations to decide what type of relations they want to have with China, then it's up to them to decide what type of relations they want to have with the U.S. If anyone in the region has cause to hate the U.S. it's the Vietnamese, yet even they see cooperation with the U.S. as a hedge against Chinese extraterritorial ambitions.

(Now, that doesn't mean I think spending blood and treasure to contain Xi's ambitions is in the interest of everyday Americans, but that's another matter.)
What Chinese extraterritorial ambitions?... With the exception of Djibouti, where do the Chinese have foreign military bases? Which countries have the Chinese threatened to bomb? Which countries have been the target of Chinese economic sanctions or boycots?...
For example, Chinese overreach in the South China Sea: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diploma ... -china-sea
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neverfail
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by neverfail » Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:15 pm

cassowary wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:49 am

Singapore depends on trade even more than Australia does. We will be hurt. But I think long term. Better to suffer for a few years rather than for China to grow stronger and end up controlling us. Maybe the Xi regime can be brought down and replaced by something better. Then we don't have to be vassals of a brutal Chinese regime.
Granted that international trade is more crucial a driving force for Singapore than it is even for Australia (one half for S. compared to one fifth for Oz.) it remains to be said that Singapore's trade exposure to the PRC (14.7% of total exports and 13.7% of imports - source = CIA world factbook) is considerably less than for my country where more than one third of our exports go the PRC (and our imports from there, though large, are less than our exports in value :i.e. we run trade surpluses with the PRC which we would be loath to lose). Perhaps should join the USA up to the PRC by way of compensating Asia-Pacific countries like ours for losses in our trade with the PRC for expanded exports to his country? If the nUS wants to swing its weight around at cost to others it should be willing to make due reparations to the innocent bystanders hurt in the process.

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Sertorio
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by Sertorio » Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:42 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:03 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:36 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:30 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:56 am
What right does the US have of trying to "contain" China in Asia? China has more right to influence the course of events in East Asia than the US. As long as China does not violate the Charter of the UN it may do whatever it wants, and it's up to other Asian nations to decide what type or relations they want to have with China. Once more the US is trying to play a role nobody assigned to it, that of a global policeman.
The Chinese government has exactly as much right as the U.S. to influence the course of events in East Asia: zero. If it's up to other Asian nations to decide what type of relations they want to have with China, then it's up to them to decide what type of relations they want to have with the U.S. If anyone in the region has cause to hate the U.S. it's the Vietnamese, yet even they see cooperation with the U.S. as a hedge against Chinese extraterritorial ambitions.

(Now, that doesn't mean I think spending blood and treasure to contain Xi's ambitions is in the interest of everyday Americans, but that's another matter.)
What Chinese extraterritorial ambitions?... With the exception of Djibouti, where do the Chinese have foreign military bases? Which countries have the Chinese threatened to bomb? Which countries have been the target of Chinese economic sanctions or boycots?...
For example, Chinese overreach in the South China Sea: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diploma ... -china-sea
For all I know, China's claims over those islands may be quite legitimate. Besides, controlling those islands doesn't mean that China would hinder free shipping on the South China Sea.

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cassowary
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by cassowary » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:26 pm

Sertorio,

Have you heard of the nine-dash-line? Anything within the red 9 dash line is what China is claiming in the South China Sea.

Image

I think it is ridiculous that China is claiming the sea so far away from its shores. This is the behavior of a bully.

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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by neverfail » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:54 pm

Cassowary,

I agree that the PRC is using strong-arm tactics here! But unfortunately there is a twist to this tale not widely noted or publicised.

The (so called) Republic of China claims the very same islands. Indeed, I believe that it was the ROC that originally identified the "nine dash line" in the first place and the PRC that subsequently took it up and ran with it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_China_Sea_Islands
From 1405 to 1433, Zheng He commanded expeditionary voyages to Southeast Asia, South Asia, Western Asia, and East Africa in Ming dynasty in China. In 1421, Zheng prepared the 6 edition Mao Kun map, usually referred to by Chinese people as Zheng He's Navigation Map (simplified Chinese: 郑和航海图; traditional Chinese: 鄭和航海圖; pinyin: Zhèng Hé hánghǎi tú), which included South China Sea Islands.

The countries with the most extensive activity in the South China Sea Islands are China and Vietnam.[citation needed]

In the 19th century, as a part of the occupation of Indochina, France claimed control of the Spratlys until the 1930s, exchanging a few with the British. During World War II, the South China Sea islands were all occupied by Japan. After the end of World War II, Japan returned all the South China Sea Islands back to China, which had been agreed by the Allied Nations.

The People's Republic of China, founded in 1949, claimed the islands as part of the province of Canton (Guangdong), and later of the Hainan special administrative region.
It (sort of) gives you a different perspective on the PRC claim, doesn't it?
.......................................................................................

With the ROC apparently occupying at least one of the islands; I would not be surprised to discover that this is an extension of the old ROC versus PRC friction.

The well known Korean War is not the only armed conflict in northeastern Asia that ended with a ceasefire instead of a peace treaty. To my understanding no peace treaty has ever been entered into between Beijing and Taipei either. So it seems that the Chinese civil war that saw Communist victory on the mainland in 1949 is still ongoing. :shock:

The reader would be excused at this point for experiencing an involuntary shudder.

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cassowary
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by cassowary » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:31 am

The nine-dash-line claim of China is a different matter as to its claim of the Islands, neverfail. The former claims the sea within the line belongs to China. This is far more serious than the Islands. It means that ships sailing through that large ocean must have Chinese permission. This could potentially block freedom of navigation. It should be regarded as international waters.

The Nine Dash Line
On 12 July 2016, an arbitral tribunal constituted under Annex VII to the 1982 United Nations Convention on Law of the Sea ruled that China has no legal basis to claim "historic rights" within its nine-dash line in a case brought by the Philippines. The tribunal judged that there was no evidence that China had historically exercised exclusive control over the waters or resources within the Nine-Dash Line. The ruling was rejected by both Taiwan and China.[15][16]

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Sertorio
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by Sertorio » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:24 am

cassowary wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:26 pm
Sertorio,

Have you heard of the nine-dash-line? Anything within the red 9 dash line is what China is claiming in the South China Sea.

Image

I think it is ridiculous that China is claiming the sea so far away from its shores. This is the behavior of a bully.
If distance from the shores is so important, then Hawaii couldn't be part of the US... Nor the Malvinas be part of the UK...

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SteveFoerster
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by SteveFoerster » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:20 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:24 am
cassowary wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:26 pm
Sertorio,

Have you heard of the nine-dash-line? Anything within the red 9 dash line is what China is claiming in the South China Sea.

Image

I think it is ridiculous that China is claiming the sea so far away from its shores. This is the behavior of a bully.
If distance from the shores is so important, then Hawaii couldn't be part of the US... Nor the Malvinas be part of the UK...
Hawaii shouldn't be part of the U.S., it was an independent country that was invaded and annexed.

And the Falklands were vacant. Argentina's claim has been nothing more than a diversionary foreign policy for two centuries now.
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Milo
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by Milo » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:48 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:20 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:24 am
cassowary wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:26 pm
Sertorio,

Have you heard of the nine-dash-line? Anything within the red 9 dash line is what China is claiming in the South China Sea.

Image

I think it is ridiculous that China is claiming the sea so far away from its shores. This is the behavior of a bully.
If distance from the shores is so important, then Hawaii couldn't be part of the US... Nor the Malvinas be part of the UK...
Hawaii shouldn't be part of the U.S., it was an independent country that was invaded and annexed.

And the Falklands were vacant. Argentina's claim has been nothing more than a diversionary foreign policy for two centuries now.
And most of the territory being claimed has no "islands", only partly exposed reefs.

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