US Foreign Policy

Discussion of current events
Jim the Moron
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Re: US Foreign Policy

Post by Jim the Moron » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:14 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:07 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:17 am

Yes. Probably most citizens of most countries would do their parts to preserve life, home, and culture against an enemy. However, this doesn't extend to wasting blood and treasure in barbaric lands. The US needs to get the hell out of there.
Not in every case. Are you aware that during the Second World War in Belgium during the Nazi German occupation of that country; few Belgians joined the underground resistance movement but of those who did virtually all to a man were drawn from the French speaking Walloon community. By contrast the majority of collaborators with the occupiers were drawn from the Flemish community; who speak a dialect of Dutch.

Why the difference? Because Flemish is a Teutonic language - a cousin to German whereas French is quite alien to both. As the Walloons had traditionally run Belgium since its inception as a sovereign state after the Napoleonic Wars the Flemish have regarded the Walloons as their oppressors and exploiters. During both World wars the Flemish were more inclined to view the German occupiers more as their liberators from Walloon oppression than as enemy occupiers of their country.

Belgium is an artifice that only exists because greater powers have deemed that it should exist. As such few Belgians would want to willingly risk their lives defending it from an invader.

What I am saying is that there are no shortage of fractured multi-tribal (and multi-confessional) states in our world whose inhabitants would consider not worth defending. Belgium is just a mild example of what I mean.
............................................................................................................................

As for the US "getting the hell out" you realise don't you that by doing so the US will abdicate the means to influence the course of events in these places: allowing others to move into the vacuum?
.......................................................................................................................

Ignoring America's quasi-imperial interests abroad: the fact that you live there at all implies that you regard the United States as a land worth living in: but do you consider it worth dying for?
May I reiterate? The US should get the hell out of Muslim lands. Of course by doing so "the US will abdicate the means to influence the course of events in these places, allowing others to move into the vacuum?" The "others" are welcome to dive into that snake pit.

Frankly, I could care less whether some Belgians are unwilling to defend their country. Typically, folks worldwide, including in America, aren't made of such pitiful character.

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Sertorio
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Re: US Foreign Policy

Post by Sertorio » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:19 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:07 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:17 am

Yes. Probably most citizens of most countries would do their parts to preserve life, home, and culture against an enemy. However, this doesn't extend to wasting blood and treasure in barbaric lands. The US needs to get the hell out of there.
Not in every case. Are you aware that during the Second World War in Belgium during the Nazi German occupation of that country; few Belgians joined the underground resistance movement but of those who did virtually all to a man were drawn from the French speaking Walloon community. By contrast the majority of collaborators with the occupiers were drawn from the Flemish community; who speak a dialect of Dutch.

Why the difference? Because Flemish is a Teutonic language - a cousin to German whereas French is quite alien to both. As the Walloons had traditionally run Belgium since its inception as a sovereign state after the Napoleonic Wars the Flemish have regarded the Walloons as their oppressors and exploiters. During both World wars the Flemish were more inclined to view the German occupiers more as their liberators from Walloon oppression than as enemy occupiers of their country.

Belgium is an artifice that only exists because greater powers have deemed that it should exist. As such few Belgians would want to willingly risk their lives defending it from an invader.

What I am saying is that there are no shortage of fractured multi-tribal (and multi-confessional) states in our world whose inhabitants would consider not worth defending. Belgium is just a mild example of what I mean.
............................................................................................................................

As for the US "getting the hell out" you realise don't you that by doing so the US will abdicate the means to influence the course of events in these places: allowing others to move into the vacuum?
.......................................................................................................................

Ignoring America's quasi-imperial interests abroad: the fact that you live there at all implies that you regard the United States as a land worth living in: but do you consider it worth dying for?
Having lived for five years in Belgium, and speaking both French and Dutch, I can tell you that the only thing differentiating Walloons and Flemish, is their language. For the rest they are very much alike. The fact that the Walloons were politically dominating was only important because of this language difference. It made the Flemish think they were "enslaved" by this "alien" people, and was at the source of the whole conflict. It goes to show that the feeling of belonging is often based on seemingly minor issues, but issues which should not be ignored. I often thought, when I was in Belgium, that if, from the foundation of Belgium, all Belgians had been forced to learn to speak both languages fluently, there wouldn't have been any problems between the two sections of the country. But while the Flemish had to learn French if they wanted to have any opportunities, the Walloons never bothered to learn Flemish. And that made peaceful coexistence impossible.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: US Foreign Policy

Post by SteveFoerster » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:13 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:07 am
As for the US "getting the hell out" you realise don't you that by doing so the US will abdicate the means to influence the course of events in these places: allowing others to move into the vacuum?
So what?
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neverfail
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Re: US Foreign Policy

Post by neverfail » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:34 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:13 pm
neverfail wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:07 am
As for the US "getting the hell out" you realise don't you that by doing so the US will abdicate the means to influence the course of events in these places: allowing others to move into the vacuum?
So what?
It may eventually rear up and bite the United States on the bum.

I sometimes wonder (for instance) what might have happened had the Roosevelt administration back in 1938 had used America's not (even in those days) inconsiderable influence to stiffen the spines of the French and British governments in opposing Hitler's plan to annex the Czech Sudetenland by (for instance) offering American military, material and financial support should war break out? It might have been enough to move Hitler to back down; averting the Second World War.

Of course it did not happen. America's mood at the time was isolationist and Roosevelt was too astute a political player to go against the direction of public opinion. Eventually, the growing conflict spreading throughout the northern hemisphere caught up with America so in the end your country had to fight a much more costly war in terms of sacrificed blood and treasure.

With America apparently now in a mood to abdicate responsibility in international affairs as in those isolationist days of yore, are you not just a bit anxious that history is about to repeat itself?

Jim the Moron
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Re: US Foreign Policy

Post by Jim the Moron » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:08 pm

Wishing that the US would withdraw its personnel from Muslim lands hardly constitutes abdicating responsibility in international affairs. It is not America's responsibility to stop barbaric Muslims from killing other barbaric Muslims.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: US Foreign Policy

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:26 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:34 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:13 pm
neverfail wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:07 am
As for the US "getting the hell out" you realise don't you that by doing so the US will abdicate the means to influence the course of events in these places: allowing others to move into the vacuum?
So what?
It may eventually rear up and bite the United States on the bum.
How? We're way over here, twelve thousand kilometers from the Middle East. And don't say "9/11!" as if that weren't a reaction to the U.S. already long meddling in the region.
neverfail wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:34 pm
I sometimes wonder (for instance) what might have happened had the Roosevelt administration back in 1938 had used America's not (even in those days) inconsiderable influence to stiffen the spines of the French and British governments in opposing Hitler's plan to annex the Czech Sudetenland by (for instance) offering American military, material and financial support should war break out? It might have been enough to move Hitler to back down; averting the Second World War.

Of course it did not happen. America's mood at the time was isolationist and Roosevelt was too astute a political player to go against the direction of public opinion. Eventually, the growing conflict spreading throughout the northern hemisphere caught up with America so in the end your country had to fight a much more costly war in terms of sacrificed blood and treasure.

With America apparently now in a mood to abdicate responsibility in international affairs as in those isolationist days of yore, are you not just a bit anxious that history is about to repeat itself?
Not even slightly. This isn't 1941, there's no power in the world capable of threatening the U.S., trebly so when the U.S. has enough nuclear-armed ICBMs to effectively destroy the planet.
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Sertorio
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Re: US Foreign Policy

Post by Sertorio » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:15 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:26 am
This isn't 1941, there's no power in the world capable of threatening the U.S., trebly so when the U.S. has enough nuclear-armed ICBMs to effectively destroy the planet.
The US will not destroy the planet. And Russia and China can destroy the US. Therefore I think it is time for the US to start thinking in a sensible way... Let's forget about super-heroes and Captain America, shall we?...

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SteveFoerster
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Re: US Foreign Policy

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:30 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:15 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:26 am
This isn't 1941, there's no power in the world capable of threatening the U.S., trebly so when the U.S. has enough nuclear-armed ICBMs to effectively destroy the planet.
The US will not destroy the planet. And Russia and China can destroy the US. Therefore I think it is time for the US to start thinking in a sensible way...
Putin or Xi could order a nuclear attack on the U.S., but it would literally be the last thing they ever did. Of course, Russia and China also cannot be successfully invaded, for that same reason.
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:15 am
Let's forget about super-heroes and Captain America, shall we?...
:? Um... no one was talking about them.
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Jim the Moron
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Re: US Foreign Policy

Post by Jim the Moron » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:34 pm

Muslim crackdown . . .

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/wo ... n-10785060

Now, why do you suppose the Chinese are distrustful of their Muslim folks? And why should the US care?

Jim the Moron
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Re: US Foreign Policy

Post by Jim the Moron » Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:26 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:34 pm
Muslim crackdown . . .

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/wo ... n-10785060

Now, why do you suppose the Chinese are distrustful of their Muslim folks? And why should the US care?
Silence is golden . . .

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