Russia is screwed

Discussion of current events
neverfail
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Re: Russia is screwed

Post by neverfail » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:56 pm

cassowary wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:57 pm
That's why the Europeans are scared of Russia and want US protection.


Well, its a bit more complex Cass.

The states on Russia's immediate threshold, including Poland and the Baltic republics certainly are scared of Russia (with good reason) and also understandably want US protection. However, I have noticed the further west you go on the European continent towards the Atlantic littoral the less fearful and more nonchalant they seem to become towards Russia. Germany and The Netherlands seem confident in their ability to handle the Slavonic power to the east whilst France has a past history of making common cause with Russia against Germany. Should Germany ever get frisky again the French would probably do it again too.

As for the poms: England's Brexit vote should amply demonstrate that they want nothing to do with Europe (or Russia) . Too many damned foreigners over there for their liking. ;) :D

Cass, never make the error of assuming that Europe thinks with one mind.

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cassowary
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Re: Russia is screwed

Post by cassowary » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:06 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:56 pm
cassowary wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:57 pm
That's why the Europeans are scared of Russia and want US protection.


Well, its a bit more complex Cass.

The states on Russia's immediate threshold, including Poland and the Baltic republics certainly are scared of Russia (with good reason) and also understandably want US protection. However, I have noticed the further west you go on the European continent towards the Atlantic littoral the less fearful and more nonchalant they seem to become towards Russia. Germany and The Netherlands seem confident in their ability to handle the Slavonic power to the east whilst France has a past history of making common cause with Russia against Germany. Should Germany ever get frisky again the French would probably do it again too.

As for the poms: England's Brexit vote should amply demonstrate that they want nothing to do with Europe (or Russia) . Too many damned foreigners over there for their liking. ;) :D

Cass, never make the error of assuming that Europe thinks with one mind.
The fear (of Russia) factor certainly declines the further west you go. Fear is highest in Poland and the Baltics and probably lowest in Portugal where Sertorio comes from. However, in general, Europe still welcomes US troops because they want American protection. That was why there was an alarm in the continent when Trump talked about withdrawing from NATO.
It is not clear whether he was talking about a partial or full withdrawal from NATO, or whether he was serious about the threat. But the other members were rattled enough to convene an emergency meeting on the spending issue.
I know you don't like the US, Neverfail. But you have to admit that it is a force for good in the world. It is protecting Europe from Russia, South Korea and Japan from North Korea and China, and Taiwan from China.

Also, don't forget that the 10 year US involvement in Vietnam saved SE Asia from Socialism.

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Sertorio
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Re: Russia is screwed

Post by Sertorio » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:40 am

cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:06 pm

The fear (of Russia) factor certainly declines the further west you go. Fear is highest in Poland and the Baltics and probably lowest in Portugal where Sertorio comes from. However, in general, Europe still welcomes US troops because they want American protection. That was why there was an alarm in the continent when Trump talked about withdrawing from NATO.
I can hardly imagine 500 million people who constitute the greatest and most prosperous economy in the world actually fearing Russia or being in need of US protection. We are quite capable of assembling all that is necessary to defend ourselves and protect our interests. We haven't spent all that money on defense exactly because we do not fear any aggression from any country in the world. Actually the greatest real threat to European prosperity and peaceful existence comes from the US, reason why it is time to acquire the defensive means we have so far lacked.

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Sertorio
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Re: Russia is screwed

Post by Sertorio » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:44 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:06 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:54 pm
seekingfortruth wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:31 pm
Sertorio,

Do you really believe the small militia of each separatist republic is able to wage a long war against the Ukrainian army all by themselves? Remember what happened in August 2014: they were close to collapse and suddenly they launched a counter-offensive on more than 200 kilometers. How could they do that? Isn't it obvious the so-called "volunteers" actually are Russian soldiers in an unofficial war against Ukraine?
There may be some Russian troops in Donbass as there are US troops in Syria. It's all big power play...
Well, either it's okay for both the Russians and the Americans to occupy foreign countries, or it's not okay for either of them.

Pick one.
Neither is objectively good or bad. But I think it is in Europe's interest for Russia to protect the ethnic Russians living in the Ukraine, and for US troops to leave Syria as soon as possible.

neverfail
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Re: Russia is screwed

Post by neverfail » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:20 am

cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:06 pm
I know you don't like the US, Neverfail.
Please let me make one thing clear Cassowary: I do NOT dislike the US. What I loath and detest is their stinking politics.

I believe that Sertorio would be of one mind with me on this. We see America as a splendid land and the people as a rule as courteous and hospitable. But spare us the crowd within the Washington DC beltway and their antics.

You will likely find that most people worldwide have the same dichotomy in their view of the US.

neverfail
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Re: Russia is screwed

Post by neverfail » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:53 am

cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:06 pm
Also, don't forget that the 10 year US involvement in Vietnam saved SE Asia from Socialism.
You are about 16 years younger than I Cassowary (i.e. you would have been a very small child while I was already aged in my late teens) so it is unlikely that you would have any memory of the horrors of war that befell the hapless peoples of Indochina thanks to that massive US military involvement. Given that you do not have a free press in Singapore it is likely that government censorship there sheltered the people of Singapore from learning the full truth of what was going on up there: so even Singaporeans of your parents' generation were very likely kept in the dark.

(When I turned 20 in 1966, it was only by chance good fortune that I myself was not conscripted into the Australian army to serve a tour of duty up in Vietnam. Among Vietnam War veterans there has ever since been a very high rate of failed marriages; mental illness and suicide. Had I been sent to Vietnam and survived the fighting I estimate that I would have prematurely died from the effects of war stress years ago).

The American military with its philosophy of shoot everything that moves and bomb anything that still stands made an utter wreck of Vietnam - and neither Laos nor Cambodia got off unscathed either. The war was obscene, horrendous and unnecessary -and we had it coming to us in sickening, graphic detail over out television screens for years on end.

After a decade plus of having endured all of the death and destruction going on around them; had I been a Vietnamese civilian myself peace under Hanoi's rule would have probably looked like a bloody appealing prospect. Anything had to be better than the war.

What marvellous propaganda the US treatment of Indochina gave both Hanoi and Moscow to use against the West. Indeed, I perceive that the only reason why Mao's China did not make more of it also was that the PRC by then (coinciding with the US presence in Vietnam) had plunged into the turmoil of the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution and was therefore disabled by events at home.

I sometimes question whether the salvation of the rest of south east Asia was worth the destruction of Indochina.

Jim the Moron
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Re: Russia is screwed

Post by Jim the Moron » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:30 am

You are quite correct, neverfail, re the trashing of Indochina. Agent Orange in Vietnam, cluster bombs in Laos, and etc. But how does that relate to Russia?

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Milo
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Re: Russia is screwed

Post by Milo » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:13 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:53 am
cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:06 pm
Also, don't forget that the 10 year US involvement in Vietnam saved SE Asia from Socialism.
You are about 16 years younger than I Cassowary (i.e. you would have been a very small child while I was already aged in my late teens) so it is unlikely that you would have any memory of the horrors of war that befell the hapless peoples of Indochina thanks to that massive US military involvement. Given that you do not have a free press in Singapore it is likely that government censorship there sheltered the people of Singapore from learning the full truth of what was going on up there: so even Singaporeans of your parents' generation were very likely kept in the dark.

(When I turned 20 in 1966, it was only by chance good fortune that I myself was not conscripted into the Australian army to serve a tour of duty up in Vietnam. Among Vietnam War veterans there has ever since been a very high rate of failed marriages; mental illness and suicide. Had I been sent to Vietnam and survived the fighting I estimate that I would have prematurely died from the effects of war stress years ago).

The American military with its philosophy of shoot everything that moves and bomb anything that still stands made an utter wreck of Vietnam - and neither Laos nor Cambodia got off unscathed either. The war was obscene, horrendous and unnecessary -and we had it coming to us in sickening, graphic detail over out television screens for years on end.

After a decade plus of having endured all of the death and destruction going on around them; had I been a Vietnamese civilian myself peace under Hanoi's rule would have probably looked like a bloody appealing prospect. Anything had to be better than the war.

What marvellous propaganda the US treatment of Indochina gave both Hanoi and Moscow to use against the West. Indeed, I perceive that the only reason why Mao's China did not make more of it also was that the PRC by then (coinciding with the US presence in Vietnam) had plunged into the turmoil of the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution and was therefore disabled by events at home.

I sometimes question whether the salvation of the rest of south east Asia was worth the destruction of Indochina.
And Vietnam is still communist today. Perhaps if America had been a bit more tolerant of harder left regimes back in the day, those regimes would have come around to a more free market system on their own. Instead, America is forever associated with. atrocities and support of gangster regimes there and western systems are a harder sell.

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cassowary
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Re: Russia is screwed

Post by cassowary » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:33 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:53 am
cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:06 pm
Also, don't forget that the 10 year US involvement in Vietnam saved SE Asia from Socialism.
You are about 16 years younger than I Cassowary (i.e. you would have been a very small child while I was already aged in my late teens) so it is unlikely that you would have any memory of the horrors of war that befell the hapless peoples of Indochina thanks to that massive US military involvement. Given that you do not have a free press in Singapore it is likely that government censorship there sheltered the people of Singapore from learning the full truth of what was going on up there: so even Singaporeans of your parents' generation were very likely kept in the dark.

(When I turned 20 in 1966, it was only by chance good fortune that I myself was not conscripted into the Australian army to serve a tour of duty up in Vietnam. Among Vietnam War veterans there has ever since been a very high rate of failed marriages; mental illness and suicide. Had I been sent to Vietnam and survived the fighting I estimate that I would have prematurely died from the effects of war stress years ago).

The American military with its philosophy of shoot everything that moves and bomb anything that still stands made an utter wreck of Vietnam - and neither Laos nor Cambodia got off unscathed either. The war was obscene, horrendous and unnecessary -and we had it coming to us in sickening, graphic detail over out television screens for years on end.

After a decade plus of having endured all of the death and destruction going on around them; had I been a Vietnamese civilian myself peace under Hanoi's rule would have probably looked like a bloody appealing prospect. Anything had to be better than the war.

What marvellous propaganda the US treatment of Indochina gave both Hanoi and Moscow to use against the West. Indeed, I perceive that the only reason why Mao's China did not make more of it also was that the PRC by then (coinciding with the US presence in Vietnam) had plunged into the turmoil of the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution and was therefore disabled by events at home.

I sometimes question whether the salvation of the rest of south east Asia was worth the destruction of Indochina.
The suffering was caused by the Socialists in USSR, N Vietnam and China which western leftists sympathized with. Whatever death and destruction caused was their fault. They were the bad guys. And so were the western left who lend them a helping hand by opposing the war. The US saved the rest of SE Asia even though they failed to save Indo China. The failure was due to western leftists who forced the US to withdraw prematurely.

The blood of the killing fields on Cambodia is on their hands and heads.

neverfail
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Re: Russia is screwed

Post by neverfail » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:30 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:30 am
You are quite correct, neverfail, re the trashing of Indochina. Agent Orange in Vietnam, cluster bombs in Laos, and etc. But how does that relate to Russia?
Do you mean the present-day Russian Federation or the USSR back in the 1960's?

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