Russia is screwed

Discussion of current events
neverfail
Posts: 2579
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: Russia is screwed

Post by neverfail » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:03 pm

cassowary wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:33 am


The suffering was caused by the Socialists in USSR, N Vietnam and China which western leftists sympathized with. Whatever death and destruction caused was their fault. They were the bad guys. And so were the western left who lend them a helping hand by opposing the war. The US saved the rest of SE Asia even though they failed to save Indo China. The failure was due to western leftists who forced the US to withdraw prematurely.
Or so you wish!

Jim the Moron just affirmed that what I posted to be true. (see his post above.)
cassowary wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:33 am
The blood of the killing fields on Cambodia is on their hands and heads.
No! The killing fields madness is entirely on the heads of Pol Pot and his Khmer Rouge henchmen.
.............................................................................................................

By the way, speaking of Cambodia: Are you aware that the Khmer Rouge rebels remained quiet until after the Nixon bombing campaign on their strongholds in Cambodia's eastern border provinces began in 1970? From that point on The KR began their long march on Phnom Penh. Until then Cambodia's ruler, Prince Norodom Sihanouk had managed to keep his country at peace - unlike in the rest of former French Indochina.

I could wager that you have never even heard of Prince Norodom Sihanouk.

Mr. Perfect
Posts: 643
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:24 pm

Re: Russia is screwed

Post by Mr. Perfect » Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:57 am

Milo wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:13 am
And Vietnam is still communist today. Perhaps if America had been a bit more tolerant of harder left regimes back in the day, those regimes would have come around to a more free market system on their own. Instead, America is forever associated with. atrocities and support of gangster regimes there and western systems are a harder sell.
The atrocities committed by leftists are many orders of magnitude worse, so I'm not sure said atrocities are what people are buying or selling. Probably based on other things.

User avatar
Milo
Posts: 1434
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:14 pm

Re: Russia is screwed

Post by Milo » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:09 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:57 am
Milo wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:13 am
And Vietnam is still communist today. Perhaps if America had been a bit more tolerant of harder left regimes back in the day, those regimes would have come around to a more free market system on their own. Instead, America is forever associated with. atrocities and support of gangster regimes there and western systems are a harder sell.
The atrocities committed by leftists are many orders of magnitude worse, so I'm not sure said atrocities are what people are buying or selling. Probably based on other things.
Perhaps it would have been better that they not have to play 'who has the worst atrocities at all?

Mr. Perfect
Posts: 643
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:24 pm

Re: Russia is screwed

Post by Mr. Perfect » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:52 pm

In the meantime the USA holds the moral high ground in every way.

neverfail
Posts: 2579
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: Russia is screwed

Post by neverfail » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:36 pm

Milo wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:09 am
Mr. Perfect wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:57 am
Milo wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:13 am
And Vietnam is still communist today. Perhaps if America had been a bit more tolerant of harder left regimes back in the day, those regimes would have come around to a more free market system on their own. Instead, America is forever associated with. atrocities and support of gangster regimes there and western systems are a harder sell.
The atrocities committed by leftists are many orders of magnitude worse, so I'm not sure said atrocities are what people are buying or selling. Probably based on other things.
Perhaps it would have been better that they not have to play 'who has the worst atrocities at all?
You know MIlo: back in the 1960's the Vietnam War was a quandary for me. Earlier I approved of the US intervention (and support Australia and a couple of other allies lent it) but as the war progressed and I became acquainted with the lies that had been used to justify that intervention I turned against that with growing abhorrence.

Despite that, I did not join any of the growing number of Vietnam moratorium mass protest marches because while I thoroughly disapproved of the intervention by then (latter 1960's), I was unwilling to as much as lift a finger to anything that might help facilitate a Communist victory up there.

Unlike some of the romantic left I did not delude myself that a Vietnam unified under Hanoi's rule was going to be any kind of socialist utopia. I foresaw (for instance) that a Communist Vietnam would be one in which the winning side would exact retribution on known supporters of the losing side; like sending them to "re-education" (i.e.forced labour) camps. And sadly it all came about just as I had visualised it earlier.

I foresaw a Vietnam unified under Communist rule as NOT (from our Western perspective) necessarily desirable but rather as inevitable and ultimately as the lesser of two evils. The greater evil would have been continuing a conflict indefinitely between two sides in which one (the Americans) were overwhelmingly superior in firepower but were using this at random to destroy the country.

The Communist side won because unlike those of their adversaries their war aims were crystal clear. Hanoi was calling the shots all along. The Western response was entirely reactive and shambolic.

User avatar
Milo
Posts: 1434
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:14 pm

Re: Russia is screwed

Post by Milo » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:09 pm

neverfail wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:36 pm
Milo wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:09 am
Mr. Perfect wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:57 am
Milo wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:13 am
And Vietnam is still communist today. Perhaps if America had been a bit more tolerant of harder left regimes back in the day, those regimes would have come around to a more free market system on their own. Instead, America is forever associated with. atrocities and support of gangster regimes there and western systems are a harder sell.
The atrocities committed by leftists are many orders of magnitude worse, so I'm not sure said atrocities are what people are buying or selling. Probably based on other things.
Perhaps it would have been better that they not have to play 'who has the worst atrocities at all?
You know MIlo: back in the 1960's the Vietnam War was a quandary for me. Earlier I approved of the US intervention (and support Australia and a couple of other allies lent it) but as the war progressed and I became acquainted with the lies that had been used to justify that intervention I turned against that with growing abhorrence.

Despite that, I did not join any of the growing number of Vietnam moratorium mass protest marches because while I thoroughly disapproved of the intervention by then (latter 1960's), I was unwilling to as much as lift a finger to anything that might help facilitate a Communist victory up there.

Unlike some of the romantic left I did not delude myself that a Vietnam unified under Hanoi's rule was going to be any kind of socialist utopia. I foresaw (for instance) that a Communist Vietnam would be one in which the winning side would exact retribution on known supporters of the losing side; like sending them to "re-education" (i.e.forced labour) camps. And sadly it all came about just as I had visualised it earlier.

I foresaw a Vietnam unified under Communist rule as NOT (from our Western perspective) necessarily desirable but rather as inevitable and ultimately as the lesser of two evils. The greater evil would have been continuing a conflict indefinitely between two sides in which one (the Americans) were overwhelmingly superior in firepower but were using this at random to destroy the country.

The Communist side won because unlike those of their adversaries their war aims were crystal clear. Hanoi was calling the shots all along. The Western response was entirely reactive and shambolic.
To know how the US screwed up Vietnam you need to go back to WWII.

Following the Japanese surrender there was an opportunity to support a flawed but viable provisional government, instead the Allies, mostly the US, let the French take over again. This alienated Ho Chi Minh and company and pushed them into Moscow's orbit. I think it's one of the all time foreign policy blunders.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Chi_ ... e_movement

Mr. Perfect
Posts: 643
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:24 pm

Re: Russia is screwed

Post by Mr. Perfect » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:27 pm

neverfail wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:36 pm
You know MIlo: back in the 1960's the Vietnam War was a quandary for me. Earlier I approved of the US intervention (and support Australia and a couple of other allies lent it) but as the war progressed and I became acquainted with the lies that had been used to justify that intervention I turned against that with growing abhorrence.
The Democrat Lyndon Johnson had that effect on a lot of people.

neverfail
Posts: 2579
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: Russia is screwed

Post by neverfail » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:55 pm

Milo wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:09 pm

To know how the US screwed up Vietnam you need to go back to WWII.

Following the Japanese surrender there was an opportunity to support a flawed but viable provisional government, instead the Allies, mostly the US, let the French take over again. This alienated Ho Chi Minh and company and pushed them into Moscow's orbit. I think it's one of the all time foreign policy blunders.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Chi_ ... e_movement
Yes, I agree!

That they allowed the French to do so was likely seen at the time as a payoff to the French for past favours as an ally. Likewise for the Dutch return to Indonesia (their precious Dutch East Indies Empire). Neither of these continental European powers emerged from the Second World War reconciled to the possibility that the era of white Western imperialism was over for keeps.

Many of the Viet Cong guerilla insurgents and North Vietnamese regular soldiers saw the Americans as stepping into the shoes of the French as another bunch of white western Imperialists attempting to deny their country its destiny as a unified sovereign state. Regardless of whether this perception was right or wrong is beside the point - that's apparently how they saw it.

As with the countless Russian soldiers who gave their lives fighting the Germans during the Second World War, Communism is not worth dying for but their country is.

neverfail
Posts: 2579
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: Russia is screwed

Post by neverfail » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:55 pm

Mr. Perfect wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:27 pm
neverfail wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:36 pm
You know MIlo: back in the 1960's the Vietnam War was a quandary for me. Earlier I approved of the US intervention (and support Australia and a couple of other allies lent it) but as the war progressed and I became acquainted with the lies that had been used to justify that intervention I turned against that with growing abhorrence.
The Democrat Lyndon Johnson had that effect on a lot of people.
I fully agree!

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 1835
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Russia is screwed

Post by Sertorio » Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:31 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:52 pm
In the meantime the USA holds the moral high ground in every way.
You must be joking! I haven't the slightest doubt that many Americans are highly ethical, but the whole history of the US is full of the most extreme violence and cruelty, as well as disrespect of the most basic human rights. I look forward to the day when the US will no longer have any influence in the affairs of the world. Americans should spend the next couple of hundred years dealing exclusively with their many problems at home, and forget about the rest of us.

Post Reply