Israel

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neverfail
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Re: Israel

Post by neverfail » Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:20 pm

EllenS wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:14 pm
Why do you imagine that Israel needs to convince you and Arabs and many Europeans of its right to exist?
Did I say that I need convincing in my previous post? No, my question reflected puzzlement as to why modern advocates for Israel seem to have an aversion for putting the "will of God" argument by way of explanation.

Your vitrolic reply to me reveals that you must have been stung by my raising of the matter of justification for the modern State of Israel's existence. Well, be as it may, it is obvious that the circumstances under which the State of Israel came into being are still controversal.

Jim the Moron
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Re: Israel

Post by Jim the Moron » Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:13 pm

"It is obvious that the circumstances under which the State of Israel came into being are still controversial." (neverfail)

Zionists and other civilized folks recognize that there are folks (mostly Muslims and Europeans) out there resentful of industrious and accomplished Israelis. These envious anti-Zionists have nothing else to fall back on except their tiresome twaddle doubting Israel's legitimacy.

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Sertorio
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Re: Israel

Post by Sertorio » Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:39 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:13 pm
"It is obvious that the circumstances under which the State of Israel came into being are still controversial." (neverfail)

Zionists and other civilized folks recognize that there are folks (mostly Muslims and Europeans) out there resentful of industrious and accomplished Israelis. These envious anti-Zionists have nothing else to fall back on except their tiresome twaddle doubting Israel's legitimacy.
Don't you ever get tired of those oversimplifications? If the world is that simple for you, why don't you solve your problems in the US?...

Jim the Moron
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Re: Israel

Post by Jim the Moron » Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:17 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:39 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:13 pm
"It is obvious that the circumstances under which the State of Israel came into being are still controversial." (neverfail)

Zionists and other civilized folks recognize that there are folks (mostly Muslims and Europeans) out there resentful of industrious and accomplished Israelis. These envious anti-Zionists have nothing else to fall back on except their tiresome twaddle doubting Israel's legitimacy.
Don't you ever get tired of those oversimplifications? If the world is that simple for you, why don't you solve your problems in the US?...

Solve America's problems? Rather beyond my pay grade . . . Are you making any progress in solving Portugal's problems?

I will continue to respond to "tiresome twaddle doubting Israel's legitimacy," unless another poster responds first.

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Sertorio
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Re: Israel

Post by Sertorio » Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:37 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:13 pm
Zionists and other civilized folks recognize that there are folks (mostly Muslims and Europeans) out there resentful of industrious and accomplished Israelis. These envious anti-Zionists have nothing else to fall back on except their tiresome twaddle doubting Israel's legitimacy.
Do you truly believe that Europeans are resentful of "industrious and accomplished" Israelis? Or that we are "envious" of Israel? What does Israel have that we don't and wished to have? An archaic religion which thinks that God is concerned about our foreskins or our eating pork?... :roll:
Jim the Moron wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:13 pm
Solve America's problems? Rather beyond my pay grade . . . Are you making any progress in solving Portugal's problems?
I help solving Portugal's problems by voting for sane political parties which still have an idea of what common good means... Something you cannot do in the US, seeing the political alternatives...

neverfail
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Re: Israel

Post by neverfail » Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:42 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:13 pm
"It is obvious that the circumstances under which the State of Israel came into being are still controversial." (neverfail)

Zionists and other civilized folks recognize that there are folks (mostly Muslims and Europeans) out there resentful of industrious and accomplished Israelis. These envious anti-Zionists have nothing else to fall back on except their tiresome twaddle doubting Israel's legitimacy.
Whoever made the absurd suggestion that Zionists were/are necessarily "civilised" in the way they promote their goals?

Who said that holding Zionism to account need be motivated by envy? Envy for what?

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Sertorio
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Re: Israel

Post by Sertorio » Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:25 am

EllenS wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:45 am
I have often wondered over the course of my life why Europeans are so obsessed with Israel and Jews. There are approximately 200 territorial disputes ongoing in the world, some much more serious and violent than the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (note Syria, Libya, Lebanon, Yemen, Iran). Yet, the only one that the EU insists on mentioning in its ponderous press releases and statements of policy is the Israeli-Palestinian one.
First, we are not obsessed with Israel and Jews. But because we consider Jews to be civilized, ethical, developed people, we expect more from Jews than we expect from most other peoples. It pains us that Jews are not capable of showing the tolerance needed to establish a normal relationship with Palestinian Arabs. And that they sometimes use a degree of violence which is totally unnecessary. But Jews are part of our world and our civilization, and we need them. Even if some people in Europe still show antisemitic feelings. But antisemites are just like pedophiles, people who must be controlled for the benefit of society.

neverfail
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Re: Israel

Post by neverfail » Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:45 pm

EllenS wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:45 am
Neverfail,

Envious of what, you ask? Good question. I have often wondered over the course of my life why Europeans are so obsessed with Israel and Jews. There are approximately 200 territorial disputes ongoing in the world, some much more serious and violent than the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (note Syria, Libya, Lebanon, Yemen, Iran). Yet, the only one that the EU insists on mentioning in its ponderous press releases and statements of policy is the Israeli-Palestinian one. Literally every pronouncement they make includes this one item, in spite of the fact that the West Bank and its Israeli settlements are, at present, one of the few islands of peace in the entire Middle East. In fact, the Arabs of the West Bank are the ONLY Arabs in the MidEast that are not in danger of being slaughtered by their fellow Arabs. That is because the Israeli Army has a security umbrella over this entire territory, including the part that is ruled over by the PA.

Spengler had his ideas as to why Europeans are obsessed with Israel. Any one with a taste for psychopathology can offer their own reasons for this apparently unhealthy preoccupation. Whatever, Israelis have grown terminably tired of listening to European dictates about what they must or must not do. The fate of the Jews in Israel is the responsibility of the Israeli government, not the EU or individual European states, such as Portugal. The Arabs and Jews of the Land of Israel will end up whereever they end up, but it won't be a one-state solution, unless that one state is called Jordan.

Unlike the past, Europeans no longer control the world, or the major ideas and ideologies of the world. They no longer are the main center of the advanced industrial world, and not even in second place. Their poisonous and peculiar prejudices against the Jewish people are now in the same bucket as those of the Arabs, those of a declining or declined power. In my view, the EU is a bigger enemy of Israel than the Arabs. And now, both are sinking into the sunset. I am happy to see the rebirth of the Jewish state after 2000 years, and to be a part of this amazing miracle. For those who don't like it, it's really a crying shame, but of no particular consequence.
Hi Ellen,

Nice reply - with nothing I wish to dissent from but this one point - it won't be Jordan.

In 1968, in the aftermath of the stunning 1967 Israeli military victory and occupation of what has since been dubbed the West Bank; the then King of Jordan rescinded the Jordanian citizenship of the entire Palestinian population (I believe around 2 million of them). Had it not been for that Israel could have negotiated a return of territory and population similar to the return of Sinai to Egypt. Thanks to that Jordanian move the West Bank Arabs have ever since been an unloved, stateless people.

Why did the Jordanian government make such an apparently iillogical policy move? I would be clueless abnout the reason were it not for the fact that years ago I had a Palestinian acquaintence who provided me with the sort of insight you would need to know someone from there to have - as this has attracted no publicity by the international mass media. It has a lot to do with the class structure and power maldistribution within Jordan.

The reason is that while the majority population of Jordan (yes, even the downsized Jordan of today) is in fact Palestinian, it's rulers are not.

My Palestinian informant described the Jordanian elite as 'desert Arabs'(ex-Bedouin): quite distinct from the long settled Palestinian Arabs. This latter's role in Jordan are that of farmers; town shopkeepers and merchants; manufacturers etc (i.e. the Jordanian private enterprise sector). The former tax them to support the government agencies: police, army and civil service - all of which are staffed with desert Arabs.

One might compare the 1968 Jordanian decision to repudiate Jordanian citizenship for the West Bank Palestinians with the 1965 decision by the Malaysian government to expel Singapore from the Malaysia Federation. That government represented Malay interests. Ridding Malaysia of Singapore meant for the price of losing a small chunk of territory and a small number of Malays it was able to rid Malaysia of a much larger number of Chinese. That rebalanced Malaysia's demographics to provide an ethnic Malay majority population.

For Jordan expelling around 2 million Palestinian ex-subjects like that in 1968 still meant that Palestinians formed the majority population of Jordan - but a much smaller majority than it did before the Israeli conquest and occupation of the West Bank - and as such less of a threat to the desert Arab grip on power. In other words: We don't want these people (or their land) back so you are welcome to them - they are your problem from now on Israel.

So Ellen: do you beliebve that Jordan would ever change its mind and reverse the decision it made re. the fate of the West Bank back in 1968? No more than the ethnic Malay rulers in Kuala Lumpur would dream of re-admitting Singapore.

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Sertorio
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Re: Israel

Post by Sertorio » Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:09 pm

neverfail wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:45 pm

Nice reply - with nothing I wish to dissent from but this one point - it won't be Jordan.
Which means you agree with the following statement by Ellen:
I have often wondered over the course of my life why Europeans are so obsessed with Israel and Jews. There are approximately 200 territorial disputes ongoing in the world, some much more serious and violent than the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (note Syria, Libya, Lebanon, Yemen, Iran). Yet, the only one that the EU insists on mentioning in its ponderous press releases and statements of policy is the Israeli-Palestinian one.
I commented on this, above, but Ellen didn't feel it worthwhile responding. Which is a pity because it may indicate that when she doesn't have a satisfactory answer, she prefers to keep silent, rather than conceding I may have a point.

My comment was:
First, we are not obsessed with Israel and Jews. But because we consider Jews to be civilized, ethical, developed people, we expect more from Jews than we expect from most other peoples. It pains us that Jews are not capable of showing the tolerance needed to establish a normal relationship with Palestinian Arabs. And that they sometimes use a degree of violence which is totally unnecessary. But Jews are part of our world and our civilization, and we need them. Even if some people in Europe still show antisemitic feelings. But antisemites are just like pedophiles, people who must be controlled for the benefit of society.
Contrarily to Ellen, maybe you will find it worthwhile responding...

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dagbay
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Re: Israel

Post by dagbay » Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:05 pm

neverfail wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:45 pm
EllenS wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:45 am
Neverfail,

Envious of what, you ask? Good question. I have often wondered over the course of my life why Europeans are so obsessed with Israel and Jews. There are approximately 200 territorial disputes ongoing in the world, some much more serious and violent than the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (note Syria, Libya, Lebanon, Yemen, Iran). Yet, the only one that the EU insists on mentioning in its ponderous press releases and statements of policy is the Israeli-Palestinian one. Literally every pronouncement they make includes this one item, in spite of the fact that the West Bank and its Israeli settlements are, at present, one of the few islands of peace in the entire Middle East. In fact, the Arabs of the West Bank are the ONLY Arabs in the MidEast that are not in danger of being slaughtered by their fellow Arabs. That is because the Israeli Army has a security umbrella over this entire territory, including the part that is ruled over by the PA.

Spengler had his ideas as to why Europeans are obsessed with Israel. Any one with a taste for psychopathology can offer their own reasons for this apparently unhealthy preoccupation. Whatever, Israelis have grown terminably tired of listening to European dictates about what they must or must not do. The fate of the Jews in Israel is the responsibility of the Israeli government, not the EU or individual European states, such as Portugal. The Arabs and Jews of the Land of Israel will end up whereever they end up, but it won't be a one-state solution, unless that one state is called Jordan.

Unlike the past, Europeans no longer control the world, or the major ideas and ideologies of the world. They no longer are the main center of the advanced industrial world, and not even in second place. Their poisonous and peculiar prejudices against the Jewish people are now in the same bucket as those of the Arabs, those of a declining or declined power. In my view, the EU is a bigger enemy of Israel than the Arabs. And now, both are sinking into the sunset. I am happy to see the rebirth of the Jewish state after 2000 years, and to be a part of this amazing miracle. For those who don't like it, it's really a crying shame, but of no particular consequence.
Hi Ellen,

Nice reply - with nothing I wish to dissent from but this one point - it won't be Jordan.

In 1968, in the aftermath of the stunning 1967 Israeli military victory and occupation of what has since been dubbed the West Bank; the then King of Jordan rescinded the Jordanian citizenship of the entire Palestinian population (I believe around 2 million of them). Had it not been for that Israel could have negotiated a return of territory and population similar to the return of Sinai to Egypt. Thanks to that Jordanian move the West Bank Arabs have ever since been an unloved, stateless people.

Why did the Jordanian government make such an apparently iillogical policy move? I would be clueless abnout the reason were it not for the fact that years ago I had a Palestinian acquaintence who provided me with the sort of insight you would need to know someone from there to have - as this has attracted no publicity by the international mass media. It has a lot to do with the class structure and power maldistribution within Jordan.

The reason is that while the majority population of Jordan (yes, even the downsized Jordan of today) is in fact Palestinian, it's rulers are not.

My Palestinian informant described the Jordanian elite as 'desert Arabs'(ex-Bedouin): quite distinct from the long settled Palestinian Arabs. This latter's role in Jordan are that of farmers; town shopkeepers and merchants; manufacturers etc (i.e. the Jordanian private enterprise sector). The former tax them to support the government agencies: police, army and civil service - all of which are staffed with desert Arabs.

One might compare the 1968 Jordanian decision to repudiate Jordanian citizenship for the West Bank Palestinians with the 1965 decision by the Malaysian government to expel Singapore from the Malaysia Federation. That government represented Malay interests. Ridding Malaysia of Singapore meant for the price of losing a small chunk of territory and a small number of Malays it was able to rid Malaysia of a much larger number of Chinese. That rebalanced Malaysia's demographics to provide an ethnic Malay majority population.

For Jordan expelling around 2 million Palestinian ex-subjects like that in 1968 still meant that Palestinians formed the majority population of Jordan - but a much smaller majority than it did before the Israeli conquest and occupation of the West Bank - and as such less of a threat to the desert Arab grip on power. In other words: We don't want these people (or their land) back so you are welcome to them - they are your problem from now on Israel.

So Ellen: do you beliebve that Jordan would ever change its mind and reverse the decision it made re. the fate of the West Bank back in 1968? No more than the ethnic Malay rulers in Kuala Lumpur would dream of re-admitting Singapore.
NF, you are correct about the demographic state of Palestinians vs Bedouin in Jordan. But here's where EllenS's Jordan statement comes in. You see, there are two groups growing in numbers of palestinians in Jordan. Those who lived there before 1947 who are full fledged citizens and have the right to property and real estate voting etc. The second group is Arabs who left Israel in 1948 at the behest of the Arab leaders hoping to clear the way for Arab victory and share in the loot. This group is segregated in on caves and refuge camps courtesy of the UN. They cannot buy property in Jordan or get official position. But they are becoming a significant group that cannot be ignored.
One day they will join force with the Jordanian Palestinians and take over Jordan. At that point the might welcome the Arabs from Israel. Such was the original basis of Trump's peace plan.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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