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neverfail
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Re: Why no peace in the Middle East

Post by neverfail » Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:19 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:20 pm

Jewish immigration stimulated Arab immigration from neighbouring places.
Whatever gave you that silly idea?

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cassowary
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Re: Why no peace in the Middle East

Post by cassowary » Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:26 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:19 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:20 pm

Jewish immigration stimulated Arab immigration from neighbouring places.
Whatever gave you that silly idea?
I read that in many books.
The Imp :D

Jim the Moron
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Re: Israel

Post by Jim the Moron » Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:25 am

Arabs not under the sway of barbaric Islamic clergy have not been adverse to relocating to Jewish-dominated areas where skills and industry are rewarded. Arabs not so inclined (those lazy unskilled folks taught by their clergy to hate and envy accomplished Jews) remain in their terrorist-spawning societies.

neverfail
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Re: Why no peace in the Middle East

Post by neverfail » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:50 pm

cassowary wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:26 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:19 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:20 pm

Jewish immigration stimulated Arab immigration from neighbouring places.
Whatever gave you that silly idea?
I read that in many books.
Books written by Zionists? Name one for instance!

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cassowary
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Re: Why no peace in the Middle East

Post by cassowary » Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:31 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:50 pm
cassowary wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:26 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:19 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:20 pm

Jewish immigration stimulated Arab immigration from neighbouring places.
Whatever gave you that silly idea?
I read that in many books.
Books written by Zionists? Name one for instance!
I just finished, “The Palestinian delusion “, by Robert Spencer. It’s stated there.

https://books.google.com.sg/books/about ... edir_esc=y

The book cited 19th century travellers to Palestine, including Mark Twain describing the lack of people living there. Jews came, developed the land, which needed labour. This attracted Arabs seeking jobs.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: Why no peace in the Middle East

Post by neverfail » Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:03 pm

cassowary wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:31 pm
neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:50 pm
cassowary wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:26 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:19 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:20 pm

Jewish immigration stimulated Arab immigration from neighbouring places.
Whatever gave you that silly idea?
I read that in many books.
Books written by Zionists? Name one for instance!
I just finished, “The Palestinian delusion “, by Robert Spencer. It’s stated there.

https://books.google.com.sg/books/about ... edir_esc=y

The book cited 19th century travellers to Palestine, including Mark Twain describing the lack of people living there. Jews came, developed the land, which needed labour. This attracted Arabs seeking jobs.
Robert Spencer, despite his Anglo sounding name, is descended from immigrants to the United States who were forced to emigrate from what is now part of Turkey because they were Christians. If as I suspect his grandparents were Armenian (it sounds like it) they is likely where his inherited grudge against Islam likely originated from:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_B._Spencer

Spencer was baptized in the Greek Orthodox Church and joined the Melkite Greek Catholic Church in 1984.[9][10][11] In a 2006 interview, Spencer stated that his grandparents were forced to emigrate from an area that is now part of Turkey because they were Christians.[12] According to a 2010 interview in New York magazine, Spencer's father worked for the Voice of America during the Cold War,....
Armenians are by tradition Orthodox Christians. Very likely in the part of the US where Spencer's family were living at his time of baptism there was no Armenian Orthodox parish so baptism into the local Greek Church was the next best option.

(What could have recommended his father for employment by Voice of America? Most likely fluency in a language spoken behind the iron Curtain such as Armenian - bearing in mind that while one part of former Armenia was brutally depopulated of Armenians by the Turkish army in 1915, the northern half was within the Tsarist Russian empire and sunsequently passed on to become a republic within the USSR.)

None of which is to say that Spencer is necessarily historically wrong. Only that he has an axe to grind and therefore his polemic should be read in that context.
...................................................................................................

Before I even dared to post the question Whatever gave you that silly idea? I Googled up the question Did Jewish immigration into Israel (1870-1948) stimulate Arab immigration from neighbouring countries?. Among the multiple responses that came up I could not find a single affirmation that it had.

I rest my case (for now).

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cassowary
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Re: Why no peace in the Middle East

Post by cassowary » Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:52 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:03 pm
cassowary wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:31 pm
neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:50 pm
cassowary wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:26 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:19 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:20 pm

Jewish immigration stimulated Arab immigration from neighbouring places.
Whatever gave you that silly idea?
I read that in many books.
Books written by Zionists? Name one for instance!
I just finished, “The Palestinian delusion “, by Robert Spencer. It’s stated there.

https://books.google.com.sg/books/about ... edir_esc=y

The book cited 19th century travellers to Palestine, including Mark Twain describing the lack of people living there. Jews came, developed the land, which needed labour. This attracted Arabs seeking jobs.
Robert Spencer, despite his Anglo sounding name, is descended from immigrants to the United States who were forced to emigrate from what is now part of Turkey because they were Christians. If as I suspect his grandparents were Armenian (it sounds like it) they is likely where his inherited grudge against Islam likely originated from:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_B._Spencer

Spencer was baptized in the Greek Orthodox Church and joined the Melkite Greek Catholic Church in 1984.[9][10][11] In a 2006 interview, Spencer stated that his grandparents were forced to emigrate from an area that is now part of Turkey because they were Christians.[12] According to a 2010 interview in New York magazine, Spencer's father worked for the Voice of America during the Cold War,....
Armenians are by tradition Orthodox Christians. Very likely in the part of the US where Spencer's family were living at his time of baptism there was no Armenian Orthodox parish so baptism into the local Greek Church was the next best option.

(What could have recommended his father for employment by Voice of America? Most likely fluency in a language spoken behind the iron Curtain such as Armenian - bearing in mind that while one part of former Armenia was brutally depopulated of Armenians by the Turkish army in 1915, the northern half was within the Tsarist Russian empire and sunsequently passed on to become a republic within the USSR.)

None of which is to say that Spencer is necessarily historically wrong. Only that he has an axe to grind and therefore his polemic should be read in that context.
Spencer is a scholar of Islam. He may have an axe to grind as you say. We don't know. But what he said makes sense and is grounded in facts.
...................................................................................................

Before I even dared to post the question Whatever gave you that silly idea? I Googled up the question Did Jewish immigration into Israel (1870-1948) stimulate Arab immigration from neighbouring countries?. Among the multiple responses that came up I could not find a single affirmation that it had.

I rest my case (for now).
I googled and found this.

Excerpt:
Records show that it was 19th and 20th century Jewish settlement and the resulting employment opportunities that drew successive waves of Arab immigrants to Palestine. “The Arab population shows a remarkable increase ….. partly due to the import of Jewish capital into Palestine and other factors associated with the growth of the [Jewish] National Home..” (The Peel Commission Report - 1937)
Its just common sense, Neverfail. Does Australia attract immigrants including illegal ones? Yes. Why? Its because Australia is a richer country that where the immigrants come from.

Now the Jews during the late 19th and 20th centuries were mainly from Europe. They would have brought along their capital and brains. So they developed Palestine. They made the deserts bloom and cultivated crops. So Israel, though poor compared to Europe, was still richer than the more backwards Arab countries. This attracted immigrants, both legal and illegal from neighboring Arab countries.

Of course, we don't know the exact numbers because they didn't have reliable data in those days. Also many immigrants were illegal. So no record.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: Spencer = man with a bogus surname putting forth a bogus argument.

Post by neverfail » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:19 am

cassowary wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:52 am

I googled and found this.

Excerpt:
Records show that it was 19th and 20th century Jewish settlement and the resulting employment opportunities that drew successive waves of Arab immigrants to Palestine. “The Arab population shows a remarkable increase ….. partly due to the import of Jewish capital into Palestine and other factors associated with the growth of the [Jewish] National Home..” (The Peel Commission Report - 1937)
Which does not mean that Arabic people did not inhabit the place before the first big influxes of European Jewry came in the late 19th century. Just that adverse conditions in their countries of origin may have prompted some Arabic "extras" to come in. (see MY provided link below).
cassowary wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:52 am
Now the Jews during the late 19th and 20th centuries were mainly from Europe. They would have brought along their capital and brains. So they developed Palestine. They made the deserts bloom and cultivated crops. So Israel, though poor compared to Europe, was still richer than the more backwards Arab countries. This attracted immigrants, both legal and illegal from neighboring Arab countries.
You ignore the tribal solidarity of Jewry.

If I know anything about Jewish settlement in Israel before 1948; if any Jewish business needed to employ extra pairs of hands the first choice for recruiting an additional employee would always be of another Jew. Likewise business dealings would have always been directed towards fellow Jews as far as possible. Arabs would always be a last resort choice if ever considered at all. Arabs would have been lucky to reap even the meanest benefits from Jewish settlement as they increasingly found themselves crowded out in their own land by these incoming foreigners.

Outcome = Jewish enterprise was many times more potent in attracting additional Jewish immigrants than Arab immigrants from abroad.
........................................................................................................................
Now:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demograph ... e_(region)

Demographic history of Palestine (region)
I have published this info preciously on this website but you apparently chose to ignore its import:

Please see chart headed:
Overview of Palestine's demographics from the 1st century to the Mandate Era

Please note that:-

1)as late as 1890 Israel/Palestine was still home to more Christians than Jews. Muslims outnumbered the two of them put together several times over.

(2) Between 1890 and 1947 while the Muslim population jumped from 532,000 to 1,181,000 the Jewish population rose from 43,000 to 630,000 over the same period. This means that while the Jewish population expanded more than 14 times the Muslim one grew by not quite 3 times over the same period. - Including the likely boost that adding the (Arabic) Christian numbers to the (Muslim) Palestinian ones the increase would just about reach three times the 1890 number.

(3) even in 1947, on the very eve of Israeli independence; Palestinians (Muslims plus Christians combined) still outnumbered Jews by around 2 to 1.
.....................................................................................................................................

So much for Jewish settlement creating prosperity for Arabs as well as for Jewish settlers. The imbalance in the growth of Jewish population mainly via immigration compared to that of the Arabic population (more by natural increase than by immigration?) reflected in the above figures speak for themselves.

(p.s. Your source Robert Spencer seems not to be a scholar as much as an advocate-propagandist: another way of saying that the man is a subtle, rather convincing, liar. The picture he paints of Israel in the 19th century was of a near uninhabited land; a contention supported by a clutch of superficial impressions gained and recorded by ill informed foreign, mainly Anglo, short-term visitors that Spencer employs as "proof". You can surely see for yourself from the demographic figures quoted above that Spencer's contention is not true).

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cassowary
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Re: Spencer = man with a bogus surname putting forth a bogus argument.

Post by cassowary » Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:44 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:19 am
cassowary wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:52 am

I googled and found this.

Excerpt:
Records show that it was 19th and 20th century Jewish settlement and the resulting employment opportunities that drew successive waves of Arab immigrants to Palestine. “The Arab population shows a remarkable increase ….. partly due to the import of Jewish capital into Palestine and other factors associated with the growth of the [Jewish] National Home..” (The Peel Commission Report - 1937)
Which does not mean that Arabic people did not inhabit the place before the first big influxes of European Jewry came in the late 19th century. Just that adverse conditions in their countries of origin may have prompted some Arabic "extras" to come in. (see MY provided link below).
I never claimed that there were no Arabs living there before the Jews came. There were Muslims, Christians and Jews. What I said was, based on what I read, Jewish immigration stimulated Arab migration.
cassowary wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:52 am
Now the Jews during the late 19th and 20th centuries were mainly from Europe. They would have brought along their capital and brains. So they developed Palestine. They made the deserts bloom and cultivated crops. So Israel, though poor compared to Europe, was still richer than the more backwards Arab countries. This attracted immigrants, both legal and illegal from neighboring Arab countries.
You ignore the tribal solidarity of Jewry.

If I know anything about Jewish settlement in Israel before 1948; if any Jewish business needed to employ extra pairs of hands the first choice for recruiting an additional employee would always be of another Jew. Likewise business dealings would have always been directed towards fellow Jews as far as possible. Arabs would always be a last resort choice if ever considered at all. Arabs would have been lucky to reap even the meanest benefits from Jewish settlement as they increasingly found themselves crowded out in their own land by these incoming foreigners.

Outcome = Jewish enterprise was many times more potent in attracting additional Jewish immigrants than Arab immigrants from abroad.
The Jews do prefer to hire their own kind, even now. But that did not mean they did not hire Arabs. Perhaps they found there were not enough Jews to hire and so hired Arabs. You are ignoring the findings of the Peel Commission which I quoted. Let me do it again.
Records show that it was 19th and 20th century Jewish settlement and the resulting employment opportunities that drew successive waves of Arab immigrants to Palestine. “The Arab population shows a remarkable increase ….. partly due to the import of Jewish capital into Palestine and other factors associated with the growth of the [Jewish] National Home..” (The Peel Commission Report - 1937)
Remember that the Jews don't have to hire Arabs to attract Arab immigrants. Just by making the place more livable would have attracted immigrants. They brought European capital and technological know how. Simply building roads, draining swamps and irrigating land would have brought in immigrants. They may have done this to benefit themselves. But a bye product was that it also benefited Arabs already living there and attracted Arab immigrants.

Remember, immigrants flow from poorer areas to richer ones. The Jewish presence made the place richer and so attracted Arabs also.
........................................................................................................................
Now:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demograph ... e_(region)

Demographic history of Palestine (region)
I have published this info preciously on this website but you apparently chose to ignore its import:

Please see chart headed:
Overview of Palestine's demographics from the 1st century to the Mandate Era

Please note that:-

1)as late as 1890 Israel/Palestine was still home to more Christians than Jews. Muslims outnumbered the two of them put together several times over.

(2) Between 1890 and 1947 while the Muslim population jumped from 532,000 to 1,181,000 the Jewish population rose from 43,000 to 630,000 over the same period. This means that while the Jewish population expanded more than 14 times the Muslim one grew by not quite 3 times over the same period. - Including the likely boost that adding the (Arabic) Christian numbers to the (Muslim) Palestinian ones the increase would just about reach three times the 1890 number.

(3) even in 1947, on the very eve of Israeli independence; Palestinians (Muslims plus Christians combined) still outnumbered Jews by around 2 to 1.
The Jews certainly increased the population through immigration especially after Hitler took power. But so did the Muslim Arabs. How much of it was due to natural increase and how much through immigration is hard to say because there were no accurate records.
.....................................................................................................................................
So much for Jewish settlement creating prosperity for Arabs as well as for Jewish settlers. The imbalance in the growth of Jewish population mainly via immigration compared to that of the Arabic population (more by natural increase than by immigration?) reflected in the above figures speak for themselves.
Imbalance of growth does not mean Arabs did not benefit from Jewish immigration. Obviously they did or they would not have immigrated to Palestine too, according to the Peel Commission.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: Spencer = man with a bogus surname putting forth a bogus argument.

Post by neverfail » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:00 pm

cassowary wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:44 am

I never claimed that there were no Arabs living there before the Jews came. There were Muslims, Christians and Jews. What I said was, based on what I read, Jewish immigration stimulated Arab migration.
If it did then obviously Arab immigration was nowhere near enough to come anywhere close matching the multiple rise in the size of the Jewish population through immigration.

This matter of "Arab immigration" is nothing but a straw man of Zionist propaganda to lull gentile admirer's (dupes?) of Israel into the delusion that Palestine/Israel was until late in the 19th century almost uninhabited frontier territory crying out for enterprising immigrants (like Jews) to come along and develop it. An especially effective lie appealing to Americans as it plays upon their cherished own national legend about nation building via the opening up of their western frontier. In fact as my quoted chart shows the Holy Land may have been sparsely populated (as did wide stretches of this planet elsewhere back in the 19th century) but that did not mean that it was uninhabited. It had been home to an overwhelmingly, well established gentile majority population for centuries before the first wave of Zionist pioneers arrived late in the 19th century.
cassowary wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:52 am
Now the Jews during the late 19th and 20th centuries were mainly from Europe. They would have brought along their capital and brains.
Something else as well Cass. The prevailing European conviction that European ways were inherently superior to those of all other races and cultures. The racism that grew in relation to the rise in European nationalism and imperialism shared by European Jews as well as gentiles. Hence from the start an attitude of contempt for Arabs and their civilization that the long resident Arabs could not have helped but pick up.
cassowary wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:52 am
Records show that it was 19th and 20th century Jewish settlement and the resulting employment opportunities that drew successive waves of Arab immigrants to Palestine. “The Arab population shows a remarkable increase ….. partly due to the import of Jewish capital into Palestine and other factors associated with the growth of the [Jewish] National Home..” (The Peel Commission Report - 1937)
I do not deny even the verity of that when the situation is looked at in the one-dimensional, bloodless way that bureaucrats and capitalists focused narrowly on the matter of economic development to the exclusion of all else unerringly favour. You remain in a state of denial over the fact that these Jewish immigrants, while they might have achieved all of these wonderful things, were not attempting to integrate themselves into the existing Arabic tradition that had prevailed in the Holy Land for centuries but instead were striving to build a whole new order alien to that of the existing gentile residents. For instance, Jewish immigrants shed Yiddish in favor of speaking Hebrew, not Arabic. Nothing less than a takeover of their country by foreigners and loss of what control they had over their own destiny was in the offing for the Palestinians.

(Please do not compare this to mass migration into post WW2 Australia as such a comparison is nought but a misleading red herring. Regardless of where they are from our immigrants make every effort to integrate into the Australian way of like - and our immigration rules are geared to select incoming immigrants on that basis. We do not have and have never had uncontrolled migration into our country which is why immigration has been such a success story out here. But the poor Palestinians never had the sovereign power to enable themselves to formulate an immigration policy to suit themselves - and that is a significant difference.)
cassowary wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:52 am
Imbalance of growth does not mean Arabs did not benefit from Jewish immigration. Obviously they did or they would not have immigrated to Palestine too, according to the Peel Commission.
Yes, and had these same Palestinian Arabs been content at witnessing the buildup of an alien society of immigrants in their midst they would not have responded with simmering discontent leading to violence. The findings of the Peel Commission were one-dimensional myopic. Let there be economic development and all else will be well- or so the logic seems to go. :(

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