Israel

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Jim the Moron
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Re: Why no peace in the Middle East

Post by Jim the Moron » Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:49 pm

dagbay wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:38 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:13 pm
cassowary wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:34 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:38 pm

I am sure that Muslims can't be of a single mind on this.
I think there are far too many of these jihadist type of preachers. That’s why Islam produced Isis, al Qaeda, Hizbollah, HAMAS.
All of which have emerged in stressed, conflict ridden parts of the world where the fire-eaters would probably not be listened to if their listeners had cause to feel secure and be content.
cassowary wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:34 pm
The fire and brimstone Christian preachers did not produce anything equivalent.
Protestantism, especially in North America, has historically had it far too easy. Which is very likely why protestants are nothing like as inclined to venerate martyred saints as are Catholics and Orthodox Christians. :D
cassowary wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:34 pm
Anyway, I have a given you my explanation for why there is no peace in the Mid East between Israel and Palestinians. What’s your explanation?
Your explanation I consider to be valid but lopsided, incomplete. The salient fact remains that within living memory the Palestinians have had the experience of witnessing their country snatched away from them by the birth and subsequent aggressive expansion of the State of Israel: an alien construct to all of Arabic heritage. Within the context of a religious creed that apparently does not acknowledge the individual as the master of his own destiny (including his own destiny as projected forward into the afterlife) what other source of hope is accessible to them other the call for collective action by the firebrand imams and political extremists?
I believe that the Arabs will not agree with any peace plan nor will they reform or leave Islam. This view is not due to their inability to act decent but because they are forced by their radical leadership and culture into the violent and self destructive path. In that vain Trump's suggested plan is a break from the failed former plans. It was guaranteed to be rejected by the Arabs and thus play into a phase II.
Yes. "The Arabs will not agree with any peace plan." (dagbay) "The Arabs say they want their territory back, but they don't want to talk to us, and they don't want to negotiate with us, and they don't want to recognize us. They want peace by immaculate conception." (Abba Eban)

There will never be peace for Israel as long as it remains a Jewish state (hopefully forever).

neverfail
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Re: Why no peace in the Middle East

Post by neverfail » Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:39 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:49 pm

Yes. "The Arabs will not agree with any peace plan." (dagbay) "The Arabs say they want their territory back, but they don't want to talk to us, and they don't want to negotiate with us, and they don't want to recognize us. They want peace by immaculate conception." (Abba Eban)
:lol: The only person ever born whom was allegedly of immaculate conception was Jesus Christ. Was Abba Eban insinuating that they should all become convert to Christianity? 8-)

(Well, they could do worse!) :D
Jim the Moron wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:49 pm
There will never be peace for Israel as long as it remains a Jewish state (hopefully forever).
There were historically a succession of at least two, possibly three, Jewish states (and earlier one Hebrew state) ages before the present one and all proved to be transitory. Nothing on and of this Earth is forever!

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cassowary
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Re: Why no peace in the Middle East

Post by cassowary » Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:51 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:13 pm
cassowary wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:34 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:38 pm

I am sure that Muslims can't be of a single mind on this.
I think there are far too many of these jihadist type of preachers. That’s why Islam produced Isis, al Qaeda, Hizbollah, HAMAS.
All of which have emerged in stressed, conflict ridden parts of the world where the fire-eaters would probably not be listened to if their listeners had cause to feel secure and be content.
That's putting the cart before the horse. It is because they listen to the fire eaters that is causing the region to be "stressed, conflict ridden parts of the world." The "fire eaters are only basing their sermons on the Koran and the example of their terrorist prophet and founder.
cassowary wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:34 pm
The fire and brimstone Christian preachers did not produce anything equivalent.
Protestantism, especially in North America, has historically had it far too easy. Which is very likely why protestants are nothing like as inclined to venerate martyred saints as are Catholics and Orthodox Christians. :D
Not sure why you brought that up. It has nothing to do with this topic.
cassowary wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:34 pm
Anyway, I have a given you my explanation for why there is no peace in the Mid East between Israel and Palestinians. What’s your explanation?
Your explanation I consider to be valid but lopsided, incomplete. The salient fact remains that within living memory the Palestinians have had the experience of witnessing their country snatched away from them by the birth and subsequent aggressive expansion of the State of Israel:


That is NOT the salient fact. That is the con job that the Arabs have done to fool naive people. The truth is that it is their violent, supremacist, imperialistic faith that is causing the problem. The Germans lost land after the WWII and were displaced from their homes.

So were the Armenians during the genocide by the Turks. So were the Tibetans who fled China's occupation of Tibet. None of these refugees remained refugees. Only the Palestinians who lost their homes in the fighting in 1948 are still homeless. None of their neighbors granted them citizenship even though many "Palestinians" came from Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Arafat was born in Cairo.

Their is no difference, linguistically, culturally, racially or religiously between the "Palestinians" and their Arab neighbors. There was no Palestinian nationality till 1967. It was invented to con people into thinking they are a small oppressed minority.

Don't get conned.

The real reason why Israel is not accepted is that a successful Jewish state is an affront to their feeling of Islamic supremacy. Destroying Israel is part of their Islamic imperialism which demands that Muslims subjugate infidels.
The Imp :D

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Sertorio
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Re: Why no peace in the Middle East

Post by Sertorio » Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:31 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:49 pm

There will never be peace for Israel as long as it remains a Jewish state (hopefully forever).
Israeli Jews should start seeing their country as a secular state with a Jewish majority, not as a Jewish state.

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dagbay
Posts: 392
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Re: Why no peace in the Middle East

Post by dagbay » Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:44 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:31 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:49 pm

There will never be peace for Israel as long as it remains a Jewish state (hopefully forever).
Israeli Jews should start seeing their country as a secular state with a Jewish majority, not as a Jewish state.
Not going to happen in any foreseeable future. Israel was established as a jewish country and is rooted in its Jewish history. It is not merely a country for Jews.
The significance of this distinction is clear if you consider how deeply the Biblical religion is intertwined in the structure of the country and it's government. Religious law is intimately involved in government structure, business and ownership laws. As an example; state land which is nearly all the land is never officially sold rather it is rented and the rental period is limited to 49 years in recognition of Jewish Jubilee laws which require all debts be forgiven on the jubilee. The modern solution assumes an automatic subsequent renewal of these leases and business agreements which allows for perpetual residence and seemless continuation.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

neverfail
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Location: Singapore

Re: Why no peace in the Middle East

Post by neverfail » Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:12 am

dagbay wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:44 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:31 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:49 pm

There will never be peace for Israel as long as it remains a Jewish state (hopefully forever).
Israeli Jews should start seeing their country as a secular state with a Jewish majority, not as a Jewish state.
Not going to happen in any foreseeable future. Israel was established as a jewish country and is rooted in its Jewish history. It is not merely a country for Jews.
The significance of this distinction is clear if you consider how deeply the Biblical religion is intertwined in the structure of the country and it's government. Religious law is intimately involved in government structure, business and ownership laws. As an example; state land which is nearly all the land is never officially sold rather it is rented and the rental period is limited to 49 years in recognition of Jewish Jubilee laws which require all debts be forgiven on the jubilee. The modern solution assumes an automatic subsequent renewal of these leases and business agreements which allows for perpetual residence and seemless continuation.
Since modern Israel is an immigrant nation of historically very recent construct (founded by secular Jews too, not even by religious zealots); are not such claims to be heir to ancient Biblical tradition rather contrived, pretentious and counterfeit?

Jim the Moron
Posts: 1883
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:51 pm

Re: Why no peace in the Middle East

Post by Jim the Moron » Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:44 am

neverfail wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:12 am
dagbay wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:44 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:31 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:49 pm

There will never be peace for Israel as long as it remains a Jewish state (hopefully forever).
Israeli Jews should start seeing their country as a secular state with a Jewish majority, not as a Jewish state.
Not going to happen in any foreseeable future. Israel was established as a jewish country and is rooted in its Jewish history. It is not merely a country for Jews.
The significance of this distinction is clear if you consider how deeply the Biblical religion is intertwined in the structure of the country and it's government. Religious law is intimately involved in government structure, business and ownership laws. As an example; state land which is nearly all the land is never officially sold rather it is rented and the rental period is limited to 49 years in recognition of Jewish Jubilee laws which require all debts be forgiven on the jubilee. The modern solution assumes an automatic subsequent renewal of these leases and business agreements which allows for perpetual residence and seemless continuation.
Since modern Israel is an immigrant nation of historically very recent construct (founded by secular Jews too, not even by religious zealots); are not such claims to be heir to ancient Biblical tradition rather contrived, pretentious and counterfeit?
Yes, folks envious of Jewish accomplishment over the ages quite naturally resent the founding and subsequent survival of the Jewish state of Israel.

Zionism:
https://jewishvirtuallibrary.org/a-defi ... of-zionism

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dagbay
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Re: Why no peace in the Middle East

Post by dagbay » Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:47 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:12 am
dagbay wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:44 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:31 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:49 pm

There will never be peace for Israel as long as it remains a Jewish state (hopefully forever).
Israeli Jews should start seeing their country as a secular state with a Jewish majority, not as a Jewish state.
Not going to happen in any foreseeable future. Israel was established as a jewish country and is rooted in its Jewish history. It is not merely a country for Jews.
The significance of this distinction is clear if you consider how deeply the Biblical religion is intertwined in the structure of the country and it's government. Religious law is intimately involved in government structure, business and ownership laws. As an example; state land which is nearly all the land is never officially sold rather it is rented and the rental period is limited to 49 years in recognition of Jewish Jubilee laws which require all debts be forgiven on the jubilee. The modern solution assumes an automatic subsequent renewal of these leases and business agreements which allows for perpetual residence and seemless continuation.
Since modern Israel is an immigrant nation of historically very recent construct (founded by secular Jews too, not even by religious zealots); are not such claims to be heir to ancient Biblical tradition rather contrived, pretentious and counterfeit?
No, even secular, non-practicing Jews are part of the Jewish nation and consider themselves as such while also considered by the rest of the world (except for you) as such.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

neverfail
Posts: 5599
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am
Location: Singapore

Re: Why no peace in the Middle East

Post by neverfail » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:13 pm

dagbay wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:47 pm
No, even secular, non-practicing Jews are part of the Jewish nation and consider themselves as such while also considered by the rest of the world (except for you) as such.
The former Jewish (before the Jews, the Hebrew) claim was that God gave this land to our forebears, beginning with Abraham. Yet if God played any role in the historically recent formation of the Jewish state (and its re-population with immigrant Jews from the diaspora) then that part played by divine intervention is obscure.

I put it to you that if the State of Israel, as seems to be the case, is nothing but a worldly, temporal construct then it's existence is illegitimate.

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cassowary
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Re: Why no peace in the Middle East

Post by cassowary » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:20 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:13 pm
dagbay wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:47 pm
No, even secular, non-practicing Jews are part of the Jewish nation and consider themselves as such while also considered by the rest of the world (except for you) as such.
The former Jewish (before the Jews, the Hebrew) claim was that God gave this land to our forebears, beginning with Abraham. Yet if God played any role in the historically recent formation of the Jewish state (and its re-population with immigrant Jews from the diaspora) then that part played by divine intervention is obscure.

I put it to you that if the State of Israel, as seems to be the case, is nothing but a worldly, temporal construct then it's existence is illegitimate.
Not all came after 1948. Some were already there for thousands of years. Some came during Ottoman times. Some came during the British Mandate.

It’s the same for the Arabs. Jewish immigration stimulated Arab immigration from neighbouring places. So the Jewish presence is as legitimate as the Arab one.

All this could have been amicably settled if not for the more extremist form of Islam in that region.

We are luckier. The kind of Islam in SE Asia is more moderate. Even so, there are extremists.
The Imp :D

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