Israel

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neverfail
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Re: Israel

Post by neverfail » Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:48 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:55 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:17 pm
There were Muslims and Jews living there. Later, they were given the choice of conversion or departure. Many chose fake conversions. There was an ever present threat of a Moslem reconquest of Iberia. You don't want Spain and Portugal to be another Libya or Morocco, right?
Portugal never wanted to expel or persecute Jews. The Portuguese king, Manuel I, was forced to do it by Spain as part of the marriage arrangements of Manuel with a Spanish princesse. But the Portuguese king made sure Jews were told to keep cool and stay in Portugal, while making a show of conversion, to satisfy the Spanish king. The idea was that soon enough things would go back to normal and Jews would be left alone. Well, things didn't quite happen like that, as Manuel's successor was an excessively pious Catholic, who really meant to have the Jews becoming good Catholics... It took about 200 years, but most of the fake Catholics - like my family - ended up becoming true Catholics...

As to Muslims in Portugal, after the Reconquista, most were the descendents of converted Christians during the Moorish occupation, so their forced conversion to Catholicism was simply a return to their origins. There was no expulsion of these Muslims (as it happened in Spain), they were just assimilated, although not always without difficulty.
Well, you have made it patently clear that Portugal was not (and is not) Spain.

Might I hazard the following guess as to WHY Portugal seems to have a tradition of being a more laid-back country (then as now) than Spain?

Portugal is a more ethnically homogeneous, inherently unified society than Spain.

To say that in inverse: Spain is a more insecure nation-state entity than Portugal.

In the north of Spain you have restive regional minorities such as Basques and Catalans who want their independence. No equivalent in Portugal.

Further, Portugal has only one terrestrial border and is no threat to its larger neighbor - so easy for the two to reach a stable accommodation. Spain has two of them: the other being with France which is not only more like Spain in size but for centuries was involved in a pan-Europe power struggle with its neighbour which resulted in the end to Spain becoming a subsidiary, client ally of France.

No equivalent happening for Portugal?

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cassowary
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Why no peace in the Middle East

Post by cassowary » Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:34 pm

The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: Why no peace in the Middle East

Post by neverfail » Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:06 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:34 pm
It’s because is islam.

https://www.americanthinker.com/article ... quest.html
Madness!

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Sertorio
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Re: Why no peace in the Middle East

Post by Sertorio » Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:21 am

neverfail wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:06 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:34 pm
It’s because is islam.

https://www.americanthinker.com/article ... quest.html
Madness!
Maybe not. Islam doesn't recognize the concept of liberty. In Islam people are not free. They are not free not to be Muslim, they are not free to dress as they wish, they are not free to eat or drink what they want, they are not free to be different in any way. And this is structural to Islam, it can never be changed. Only when people in Muslim countries become fed up with Islam - through becoming more cultivated and developed - can we have a normal relationship with them. Until then they are an abcess which must be contained. Peacefully, as long as they don't threaten us. Not so peacefully otherwise.

Jim the Moron
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Re: Israel

Post by Jim the Moron » Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:07 am

"In Islam people are not free not to be Muslim." (Sertorio)

An important fact.

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cassowary
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Re: Why no peace in the Middle East

Post by cassowary » Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:58 am

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:21 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:06 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:34 pm
It’s because is islam.

https://www.americanthinker.com/article ... quest.html
Madness!
Maybe not. Islam doesn't recognize the concept of liberty. In Islam people are not free. They are not free not to be Muslim, they are not free to dress as they wish, they are not free to eat or drink what they want, they are not free to be different in any way. And this is structural to Islam, it can never be changed. Only when people in Muslim countries become fed up with Islam - through becoming more cultivated and developed - can we have a normal relationship with them. Until then they are an abcess which must be contained. Peacefully, as long as they don't threaten us. Not so peacefully otherwise.
Very true. This is another rare occasion, we agree Sertorio. The medieval European, especially the Spanish and Portuguese, knew this. But I guess most Europeans have forgotten.

That is why Israel cannot make peace with the Palestinians. The article I linked to is absolutely correct. Their desire to subjugate the infidel makes them want to destroy Israel. Let me quote from the article:
Palestinian cleric Nidhal Siam made clear that, from an Islamic perspective, liberation and conquest are one and the same.

After all the takbirs (chants of "Allahu Akbar") had subsided, Siam spoke:

Oh Muslims, the anniversary of the conquest [literally, fath/فتح, "opening"] of Constantinople brings tidings of things to come. It brings tidings that Rome will be conquered in the near future, Allah willing…. We are approaching the fulfillment of three prophecies, and we pray that Allah will fulfill these prophecies by our hands. The first prophecy is the establishment of the rightly-guided Caliphate in accordance with the way of the prophet. The second prophecy is the liberation of the Al-Aqsa Mosque, and the establishment of Jerusalem as the capital of the state of the Caliphate. The third prophecy is that Islam will throw its neighbors to the ground, and that its reach will span across the east and the west of this Earth. This is Allah's promise, and Allah does not renege on his promises.

He and the assembled throng then repeatedly chanted, "By means of the Caliphate and the consolidation of power, Mehmed the Conqueror vanquished Constantinople!" and "Your conquest, oh Rome, is a matter of certainty!"

Consider for a moment the significance of these remarks — coming as they are from Palestinians, who, when speaking to and seeking sympathy from the international community, often present themselves as an oppressed people whose land is unjustly occupied.
So who are the dumb ones who believe the Palestinians are an oppressed minority? Not me. Not most Singaporeans. It is the western left who are the dumb ones(now minus clever Sertorio who gets it).

............................................................................................................................

Reading in between the lines, Trump's new peace plan tells me that Trump now understands this. Whenever you reward the Palestinians with more land, they still act violent. There is no peace. Trump has seen through them. The last President, oBUMa pressed Israel to make more concessions. Stupid idea to reward bad behavior. After Israel gave them Gaza, they reciprocated not with generosity and gratitude but with rockets. So why press Israel for more concessions? Better to punish the Palestinians.

So Trump peace plan now offers them less land than earlier offers. Serves them right for rejecting so many generous Israeli offers. Punishment for bad behavior is the only way to peace. Its realistic. The Palestinians must feel they have been defeated before they make peace. If I were Netanyahu, I would wait for the next rocket barrage from Gaza. Then move in with the IDF and kill all HAMAS fighters.

Then withdraw and let them set up a new government. It might be the PLA or it might be the remnants of HAMAS or someone else. If the new government behaves the same, then raid Gaza again and kill all fighters. Repeat till they realise they cannot win. After enough blood has been spilled, they will give up. That's Cassowary's road map to peace. It complements the Trump plan.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: Why no peace in the Middle East

Post by neverfail » Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:38 pm

cassowary wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:58 am
Palestinian cleric Nidhal Siam made clear that, from an Islamic perspective, liberation and conquest are one and the same.

After all the takbirs (chants of "Allahu Akbar") had subsided, Siam spoke:

Oh Muslims, the anniversary of the conquest [literally, fath/فتح, "opening"] of Constantinople brings tidings of things to come. It brings tidings that Rome will be conquered in the near future, Allah willing…. We are approaching the fulfillment of three prophecies, and we pray that Allah will fulfill these prophecies by our hands. The first prophecy is the establishment of the rightly-guided Caliphate in accordance with the way of the prophet. The second prophecy is the liberation of the Al-Aqsa Mosque, and the establishment of Jerusalem as the capital of the state of the Caliphate. The third prophecy is that Islam will throw its neighbors to the ground, and that its reach will span across the east and the west of this Earth. This is Allah's promise, and Allah does not renege on his promises.

He and the assembled throng then repeatedly chanted, "By means of the Caliphate and the consolidation of power, Mehmed the Conqueror vanquished Constantinople!" and "Your conquest, oh Rome, is a matter of certainty!"
Consider for a moment the significance of these remarks — coming as they are from Palestinians, who, when speaking to and seeking sympathy from the international community, often present themselves as an oppressed people whose land is unjustly occupied.
( :lol: Lest I seem like one of those "dumb" Westerners which I am not: )

The thought that comes into my mind here is "one swallow does not make a summer". A pep talk given by one fired up Muslim cleric to a crowd of receptive listeners does not necessarily speak for the whole of Islam - any more than a fiery sermon preached by a hellfire and brimstone preacher in a remote corner of the American deep South speaks for the whole of Christianity.

I am sure that Muslims can't be of a single mind on this.

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cassowary
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Re: Why no peace in the Middle East

Post by cassowary » Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:34 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:38 pm
cassowary wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:58 am
Palestinian cleric Nidhal Siam made clear that, from an Islamic perspective, liberation and conquest are one and the same.

After all the takbirs (chants of "Allahu Akbar") had subsided, Siam spoke:

Oh Muslims, the anniversary of the conquest [literally, fath/فتح, "opening"] of Constantinople brings tidings of things to come. It brings tidings that Rome will be conquered in the near future, Allah willing…. We are approaching the fulfillment of three prophecies, and we pray that Allah will fulfill these prophecies by our hands. The first prophecy is the establishment of the rightly-guided Caliphate in accordance with the way of the prophet. The second prophecy is the liberation of the Al-Aqsa Mosque, and the establishment of Jerusalem as the capital of the state of the Caliphate. The third prophecy is that Islam will throw its neighbors to the ground, and that its reach will span across the east and the west of this Earth. This is Allah's promise, and Allah does not renege on his promises.

He and the assembled throng then repeatedly chanted, "By means of the Caliphate and the consolidation of power, Mehmed the Conqueror vanquished Constantinople!" and "Your conquest, oh Rome, is a matter of certainty!"
Consider for a moment the significance of these remarks — coming as they are from Palestinians, who, when speaking to and seeking sympathy from the international community, often present themselves as an oppressed people whose land is unjustly occupied.
( :lol: Lest I seem like one of those "dumb" Westerners which I am not: )

The thought that comes into my mind here is "one swallow does not make a summer". A pep talk given by one fired up Muslim cleric to a crowd of receptive listeners does not necessarily speak for the whole of Islam - any more than a fiery sermon preached by a hellfire and brimstone preacher in a remote corner of the American deep South speaks for the whole of Christianity.

I am sure that Muslims can't be of a single mind on this.
I think there are far too many of these jihadist type of preachers. That’s why Islam produced Isis, al Qaeda, Hizbollah, HAMAS. The fire and brimstone Christian preachers did not produce anything equivalent.

Anyway, I have a given you my explanation for why there is no peace in the Mid East between Israel and Palestinians. What’s your explanation?
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: Why no peace in the Middle East

Post by neverfail » Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:13 pm

cassowary wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:34 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:38 pm

I am sure that Muslims can't be of a single mind on this.
I think there are far too many of these jihadist type of preachers. That’s why Islam produced Isis, al Qaeda, Hizbollah, HAMAS.
All of which have emerged in stressed, conflict ridden parts of the world where the fire-eaters would probably not be listened to if their listeners had cause to feel secure and be content.
cassowary wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:34 pm
The fire and brimstone Christian preachers did not produce anything equivalent.
Protestantism, especially in North America, has historically had it far too easy. Which is very likely why protestants are nothing like as inclined to venerate martyred saints as are Catholics and Orthodox Christians. :D
cassowary wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:34 pm
Anyway, I have a given you my explanation for why there is no peace in the Mid East between Israel and Palestinians. What’s your explanation?
Your explanation I consider to be valid but lopsided, incomplete. The salient fact remains that within living memory the Palestinians have had the experience of witnessing their country snatched away from them by the birth and subsequent aggressive expansion of the State of Israel: an alien construct to all of Arabic heritage. Within the context of a religious creed that apparently does not acknowledge the individual as the master of his own destiny (including his own destiny as projected forward into the afterlife) what other source of hope is accessible to them other the call for collective action by the firebrand imams and political extremists?

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dagbay
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Re: Why no peace in the Middle East

Post by dagbay » Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:38 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:13 pm
cassowary wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:34 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:38 pm

I am sure that Muslims can't be of a single mind on this.
I think there are far too many of these jihadist type of preachers. That’s why Islam produced Isis, al Qaeda, Hizbollah, HAMAS.
All of which have emerged in stressed, conflict ridden parts of the world where the fire-eaters would probably not be listened to if their listeners had cause to feel secure and be content.
cassowary wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:34 pm
The fire and brimstone Christian preachers did not produce anything equivalent.
Protestantism, especially in North America, has historically had it far too easy. Which is very likely why protestants are nothing like as inclined to venerate martyred saints as are Catholics and Orthodox Christians. :D
cassowary wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:34 pm
Anyway, I have a given you my explanation for why there is no peace in the Mid East between Israel and Palestinians. What’s your explanation?
Your explanation I consider to be valid but lopsided, incomplete. The salient fact remains that within living memory the Palestinians have had the experience of witnessing their country snatched away from them by the birth and subsequent aggressive expansion of the State of Israel: an alien construct to all of Arabic heritage. Within the context of a religious creed that apparently does not acknowledge the individual as the master of his own destiny (including his own destiny as projected forward into the afterlife) what other source of hope is accessible to them other the call for collective action by the firebrand imams and political extremists?
I believe that the Arabs will not agree with any peace plan nor will they reform or leave Islam. This view is not due to their inability to act decent but because they are forced by their radical leadership and culture into the violent and self destructive path. In that vain Trump's suggested plan is a break from the failed former plans. It was guaranteed to be rejected by the Arabs and thus play into a phase II.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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