Israel

Discussion of current events
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cassowary
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Re: Israel

Post by cassowary » Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:50 am

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:25 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:37 am
So religions that preach self restraint, forgiveness, gentleness and love developed to help that society to live peacefully with one another. It seeks to promote a stable, peaceful society. Note that Christianity was born under Pax Romana.
pot
Nothing more self restraining, forgiving, gentle and loving than Inquisition which was invented and developed by good Christians such as the Spaniards and our good selves in Portugal!... :D
You are cherry picking one bad event in history. Look at the whole record. There were Christian abolitionists. Human rights developed out of Christian beliefs. Besides, the only ferocious Inquisition was in Iberia. They were jumpy there because the country was divided. Muslims, Jews were living there and many pretended to convert. So they wanted to weed out potential traitors who might assist in a North African invasion.

I believe the numbers killed was in the region of 30,000 people. That pales in comparison to the 95 million killed by Socialists/Communists.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: Israel

Post by neverfail » Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:17 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:25 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:37 am
So religions that preach self restraint, forgiveness, gentleness and love developed to help that society to live peacefully with one another. It seeks to promote a stable, peaceful society. Note that Christianity was born under Pax Romana.
Nothing more self restraining, forgiving, gentle and loving than Inquisition which was invented and developed by good Christians such as the Spaniards and our good selves in Portugal!... :D
Was the creed of Christianity to blame for that? I think that power politics has a lot more to do with it than religion.

I grew up in a country where the (minority) Catholic community had a history behind it, right from the start of British colonization, If anything that of a counter-culture presence within society at large. Not unusual in an English-speaking country with a majority protestant heritage for the Catholics to be (socially and politically) "on the outer" like that. Not so much today as back then. Naturally, having grown up within a Church whose local tradition was like that I presumed that the role of the Catholic Church was that way everywhere. "We Catholics always get the rough end of the stick."

As a young adult I then undertook a module of Reformation history and discovered, to my consternation, that in other countries , more so in ages past than now, The Church had wielded enormous power of a temporal kind; enjoyed undue privilege and wealth and had been thoroughly corrupted by it.

How did I feel about it? I felt betrayed and outraged to the core of my being. " It is NOT the rightful lot of the Catholic Church to enjoy such power, privilege and wealth but instead to humbly follow in the footsteps of Jesus Christ".

It was a test for my faith; which only barely survived the test.
................................................................................................................

I have never studied the role of The Church in Portuguese society but I learned in recent years that by the early 16th century (before the reformation got under way) that the monarchies of both France and Spain had both wrested from the Vatican the right to appoint their own bishops to the Church within their respective domains. It astonished me that any Pope would ever make such a concession to any temporal ruler - yet it seems that it happened. The trouble with Church authority figures appointed by temporal governments is that they are usually appointed for reasons of political convenience. "Political" bishops like that rarely, if ever, made good spiritual leaders (let alone holy men) but instead tend to be worldly figures with all the propensity to inject worldly corruptions into a Church that ideally should be a sanctuary and safe-haven from all of that sort of shit.

Thus, especially after the ascension of King Philip the Second (Felipe Dos?) to the Spanish throne, the Inquisition was utilized as an instrument of state policy to purge Spanish society of all potential malcontents who, if left unattended to, might threaten the stability and security of the Spanish state (along with the longevity of its incumbent dynasty of kings). Think of Stalin's purges in the Soviet Union back in the 1930's; then substitute Catholic doctrine and practice for the materialist dialectic (and other mandatory absurdities) of Soviet Communism and you may probably get the picture.

The mission of the Spanish inquisition was therefore to bring about a contrived, enforced unification of the Spanish state and Spanish society by way of every Spanish, man, woman and child, worshiping the same God in the same way; believing the same creed and having the same set of loyalties. Jews, Muslims and Protestants did not fit in and therefore needed to be weeded out and cast into the outer darkness.

Though the Catholic Church was culpable to the point where it ceded so much power to the Spanish state; the driving force behind it was the best interests of the Spanish state.

Jim the Moron
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Re: Israel

Post by Jim the Moron » Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:16 pm

Of course it was the solemn duty of "The Church" to support . . . the best interests of the Spanish state" to "weed out" non-Catholics. Just as it was the solemn duty of "The Church" to be at the forefront of the genocide of Native Americans in the West Indies and elsewhere in the New World?

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cassowary
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Re: Israel

Post by cassowary » Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:17 pm

neverfail wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:17 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:25 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:37 am
So religions that preach self restraint, forgiveness, gentleness and love developed to help that society to live peacefully with one another. It seeks to promote a stable, peaceful society. Note that Christianity was born under Pax Romana.
Nothing more self restraining, forgiving, gentle and loving than Inquisition which was invented and developed by good Christians such as the Spaniards and our good selves in Portugal!... :D
Was the creed of Christianity to blame for that? I think that power politics has a lot more to do with it than religion.

I grew up in a country where the (minority) Catholic community had a history behind it, right from the start of British colonization, If anything that of a counter-culture presence within society at large. Not unusual in an English-speaking country with a majority protestant heritage for the Catholics to be (socially and politically) "on the outer" like that. Not so much today as back then. Naturally, having grown up within a Church whose local tradition was like that I presumed that the role of the Catholic Church was that way everywhere. "We Catholics always get the rough end of the stick."

As a young adult I then undertook a module of Reformation history and discovered, to my consternation, that in other countries , more so in ages past than now, The Church had wielded enormous power of a temporal kind; enjoyed undue privilege and wealth and had been thoroughly corrupted by it.

How did I feel about it? I felt betrayed and outraged to the core of my being. " It is NOT the rightful lot of the Catholic Church to enjoy such power, privilege and wealth but instead to humbly follow in the footsteps of Jesus Christ".

It was a test for my faith; which only barely survived the test.
................................................................................................................

I have never studied the role of The Church in Portuguese society but I learned in recent years that by the early 16th century (before the reformation got under way) that the monarchies of both France and Spain had both wrested from the Vatican the right to appoint their own bishops to the Church within their respective domains. It astonished me that any Pope would ever make such a concession to any temporal ruler - yet it seems that it happened. The trouble with Church authority figures appointed by temporal governments is that they are usually appointed for reasons of political convenience. "Political" bishops like that rarely, if ever, made good spiritual leaders (let alone holy men) but instead tend to be worldly figures with all the propensity to inject worldly corruptions into a Church that ideally should be a sanctuary and safe-haven from all of that sort of shit.

Thus, especially after the ascension of King Philip the Second (Felipe Dos?) to the Spanish throne, the Inquisition was utilized as an instrument of state policy to purge Spanish society of all potential malcontents who, if left unattended to, might threaten the stability and security of the Spanish state (along with the longevity of its incumbent dynasty of kings). Think of Stalin's purges in the Soviet Union back in the 1930's; then substitute Catholic doctrine and practice for the materialist dialectic (and other mandatory absurdities) of Soviet Communism and you may probably get the picture.

The mission of the Spanish inquisition was therefore to bring about a contrived, enforced unification of the Spanish state and Spanish society by way of every Spanish, man, woman and child, worshiping the same God in the same way; believing the same creed and having the same set of loyalties. Jews, Muslims and Protestants did not fit in and therefore needed to be weeded out and cast into the outer darkness.

Though the Catholic Church was culpable to the point where it ceded so much power to the Spanish state; the driving force behind it was the best interests of the Spanish state.
As I said earlier, a divided state was a threat to stability. There were Muslims and Jews living there. Later, they were given the choice of conversion or departure. Many chose fake conversions. There was an ever present threat of a Moslem reconquest of Iberia. Y

ou don't want Spain and Portugal to be another Libya or Morocco, right? So the Spanish monarch was afraid. That was why the Inquisition got out of hand in Spain. This did not happen in other parts of Europe. The institution of the Inquisition was abused in Spain to ensure the survival of the Spanish state and its dynasty of Kings.

...............................................................................................................................

The Pope gave the King of Spain the right to appoint Bishops. That resulted in the Bishops being loyal to the King and not to the Pope. The current Pope has made the same mistake. It gave "Emperor" Xi the right to appoint Chinese Bishops. Another disaster in the making?

But of course, Sertorio approves of the appointment of Chinese Bishops by a Socialist atheist dictator.
The Imp :D

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Sertorio
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Re: Israel

Post by Sertorio » Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:30 pm

cassowary wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:17 pm

But of course, Sertorio approves of the appointment of Chinese Bishops by a Socialist atheist dictator.
Of course. As I have repeatedly stated in this forum, for all to see... :lol:

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Sertorio
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Re: Israel

Post by Sertorio » Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:55 pm

cassowary wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:17 pm
There were Muslims and Jews living there. Later, they were given the choice of conversion or departure. Many chose fake conversions. There was an ever present threat of a Moslem reconquest of Iberia. You don't want Spain and Portugal to be another Libya or Morocco, right?
Portugal never wanted to expel or persecute Jews. The Portuguese king, Manuel I, was forced to do it by Spain as part of the marriage arrangements of Manuel with a Spanish princesse. But the Portuguese king made sure Jews were told to keep cool and stay in Portugal, while making a show of conversion, to satisfy the Spanish king. The idea was that soon enough things would go back to normal and Jews would be left alone. Well, things didn't quite happen like that, as Manuel's successor was an excessively pious Catholic, who really meant to have the Jews becoming good Catholics... It took about 200 years, but most of the fake Catholics - like my family - ended up becoming true Catholics...

As to Muslims in Portugal, after the Reconquista, most were the descendents of converted Christians during the Moorish occupation, so their forced conversion to Catholicism was simply a return to their origins. There was no expulsion of these Muslims (as it happened in Spain), they were just assimilated, although not always without difficulty.

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cassowary
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Re: Israel

Post by cassowary » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:08 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:30 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:17 pm

But of course, Sertorio approves of the appointment of Chinese Bishops by a Socialist atheist dictator.
Of course. As I have repeatedly stated in this forum, for all to see... :lol:
So if these Bishops end up supporting as bad as the Spanish Inquisition (it might be worse), do you blame Xi or the Catholic Church?
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: China and the Church.

Post by neverfail » Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:27 pm

cassowary wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:08 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:30 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:17 pm

But of course, Sertorio approves of the appointment of Chinese Bishops by a Socialist atheist dictator.
Of course. As I have repeatedly stated in this forum, for all to see... :lol:
So if these Bishops end up supporting as bad as the Spanish Inquisition (it might be worse), do you blame Xi or the Catholic Church?
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/22/worl ... shops.html

It seems that the Pope has only recognized the appointment of 7 bishops by Beijing that the Vatican had not endorsed and previously excommunicated. It is merely an olive branch gesture to the PRC government for the purpose of a first step in improved relations. This does not mean that should Beijing appoint more of its own bishops the Vatican would necessarily endorse them. I believe that Beijing understands that and so has an incentive to hold off on other appointments.

The situation is murky and nothing is fixed and permanent yet.

Like it or not Cassowary if the Vatican is ever to minister to its Catholics in China effectively it has no choice but to come to a collaborative sort of agreement with Beijing. That is unavoidable.

Jim the Moron
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Re: Israel

Post by Jim the Moron » Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:27 am

Is there a chance, any chance, that this theme, "Israel," can return to a discussion of treaty matters and such in The Levant? Can I suggest a theme for folks so inclined - "Religion" - for discussions on Catholicism, Calvinism, Buddhism, or whatever, in lieu of sabotaging unrelated themes?

neverfail
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Re: Israel

Post by neverfail » Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:33 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:27 am
Is there a chance, any chance, that this theme, "Israel," can return to a discussion of treaty matters and such in The Levant? Can I suggest a theme for folks so inclined - "Religion" - for discussions on Catholicism, Calvinism, Buddhism, or whatever, in lieu of sabotaging unrelated themes?
Take your own advice, troll! Recently, you did a rather convincing job in the matter of discussions on Catholicism (etc) with the following uncalled for, malicious jibe:
Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:16 pm
Of course it was the solemn duty of "The Church" to support . . . the best interests of the Spanish state" to "weed out" non-Catholics. Just as it was the solemn duty of "The Church" to be at the forefront of the genocide of Native Americans in the West Indies and elsewhere in the New World?

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