Israel

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dagbay
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Re: Israel

Post by dagbay » Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:54 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:27 pm
dagbay wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:37 pm

Note that the claim that the modern Arabs who live in Israel have anything in common with the Umayyads is a stretch as those former ones were dilated by the Crusaders.
The legacy of the Umayyads persists to this day in human form by the fact that the Palestinians still use Arabic as their spoken language (presumably too the Arabic written script) and are predominantly Sunni Muslim in religious allegiance (and those Palestinians who are not are Christian). The Crusaders came and went and left behind neither a permanent majority population of Western Christians nor Medieval French as an enduring language; bearing in mind that the Crusader-conquerors were comprised predominantly of French knights). The Ottoman Turks, Sunni Muslims themselves, stayed for around 4 centuries but did not leave Turkish behind as the regional spoken language. Only the heritage of the Umayyards survived the ebb and flow of all of these Empires and endured in the form of the Palestinian people.
dagbay wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:37 pm
Yes the Dome of the Rock which is a monument not a mosque was built at the time on top of the retaining walls of the former Jewish temple.
Jewish temple? Which one Dagbay? The original temple of King Solomon, which housed the Ark of the Covenant, was despoiled and utterly destroyed by the Chaldeans when they took Jerusalem and subsequently led the Jews off into their (80?) years of captivity in Mesopotamia. To my understanding that wall, known as the Western or wailing wall, was the foundation of a substitute temple built by the (usurper) King Herod the Great a few short decades before Christ was born. Since this latter day substitute never housed the Ark of the Covenant it was, unlike its predecessor, arguably never sanctified; devoid of God's presence.

That temple met the same fate as Solomon's original when the Romans leveled Jerusalem in their effort to quash the Zealot uprising.
.........................................................................................................................................

Please acknowledge that the Palestinians have a continuous presence in the holy land running back for over 1000 years and that the State of Israel came into being as a result of an unwonted, unsolicited invasion by immigrant Zionist and refugee Jews from Europe beginning late in the 19th century. I consider modern Israel to be an historically young society of immigrants - the youngest of them all trumping even the likes of the USA, Canada and my country in terms of the sheer brevity of time that it has existed. This decidedly New World sort of society brushed aside the existing (gentile, Palestinian) inhabitants as no account people without preemptive rights.

(Even Israel's much admired energy in nation building is the sort one would except to find in a restless society of recent immigrants rather than among a long settled people of hallowed tradition.)

Attempts to establish a link with the inhabitants of the ancient kingdom of Judah (from which the name Jew originates) as a source of legitimacy for the modern Jewish state seem to me to be contrived, dishonest and being based upon wishful thinking doomed to failure.
I disagree with your assertion that Arabs living in Israel today have any connection with former Muslim conquests of the land. The fact that they speak dialects of Arabic is of no consequence. Those dialects are closely aressociated with those spoken by modern Egyptian, Syrian and KSA Arabs. Their family lineages are mostly recent out shoots of those countries. Knowing some facts about them such as their tribal separation and animus clearly indicates that they have no common lineage to any former Muslim unity Umayyad or other.
Jewish connection to the ancestral land of Israel to me is beyond argument. The right of Jews to live in that land is therefore equally undisputable. I do not exclude other people from living in Israel but those must be law abiding individuals. Unlike the Arabs who have effectively censer their countries from all non-Muslims especially Jews and Christians, Israeli Arabs participate in all walks of life in Israel as citizens.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

neverfail
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Re: Israel

Post by neverfail » Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:38 pm

dagbay wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:54 pm

I disagree with your assertion that Arabs living in Israel today have any connection with former Muslim conquests of the land.
Since Arabic would not have been the spoken language of the gentile majority in your country before those Arab-Islamic conquests your disagreement would not be the consequence of any objective assessment of the facts but the sort of self-serving belief encouraged by Zionist propaganda. A convenient official lie.
dagbay wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:54 pm
The fact that they speak dialects of Arabic is of no consequence.

The fact that Palestinian's speak Arabic at all is of every consequence.
dagbay wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:54 pm
Jewish connection to the ancestral land of Israel to me is beyond argument.
The name Jew originates from the Kingdom of Judah (named after the Hebrew tribe of the same name): subsequently re-pronounced over the centuries since into JUDEA; the regional name for the district around Jerusalem. Judea was the southern bit of the Hebrew Kingdom consolidated by the illustrious shepherd King David and ruled at its apogee by King Solomon. The more populous northern part known as Israel lapsed into various forms of heresy and apostasy and was finally extinguished by the Assyrians - who for unknown reasons allowed Judea to remain untouched for the better part of another century.

Amazing that the founders of modern Israel would have named it after an ancient Mid. Eastern failed state. :) )

I question whether modern Jewry has any connection with that ancient kingdom and its inhabitants. Those of Israel are the immediate descendants of historically recent immigrants from many lands abroad.

I am equally in no doubt about the importance of Jerusalem and other hallowed sites in the land to Jewry for religious and related historic-mythological reasons. But then the other two Abrahamic faiths, Christianity and Islam, are likewise stakeholders in that regard.

dagbay wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:54 pm
The right of Jews to live in that land is therefore equally undisputable.
So do I! But only to live there. Not to carve out a state of their own at great cost to the long lived former occupants and owners of centuries duration, the Palestinians. That was what was envisaged by the Balfour Declaration.

Your efforts to denigrate the image of the Palestinians, a typically dishonest Zionist ploy, brings no credit on you at all Dagbay.

Even if this represents "conventional wisdom" in the part of the world where you live you might at least be independent minded enough to shake yourself loose from such erratic thinking.

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dagbay
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Re: Israel

Post by dagbay » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:55 pm

neverfail wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:38 pm
dagbay wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:54 pm

I disagree with your assertion that Arabs living in Israel today have any connection with former Muslim conquests of the land.
Since Arabic would not have been the spoken language of the gentile majority in your country before those Arab-Islamic conquests your disagreement would not be the consequence of any objective assessment of the facts but the sort of self-serving belief encouraged by Zionist propaganda. A convenient official lie.
dagbay wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:54 pm
The fact that they speak dialects of Arabic is of no consequence.

The fact that Palestinian's speak Arabic at all is of every consequence.
dagbay wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:54 pm
Jewish connection to the ancestral land of Israel to me is beyond argument.
The name Jew originates from the Kingdom of Judah (named after the Hebrew tribe of the same name): subsequently re-pronounced over the centuries since into JUDEA; the regional name for the district around Jerusalem. Judea was the southern bit of the Hebrew Kingdom consolidated by the illustrious shepherd King David and ruled at its apogee by King Solomon. The more populous northern part known as Israel lapsed into various forms of heresy and apostasy and was finally extinguished by the Assyrians - who for unknown reasons allowed Judea to remain untouched for the better part of another century.

Amazing that the founders of modern Israel would have named it after an ancient Mid. Eastern failed state. :) )

I question whether modern Jewry has any connection with that ancient kingdom and its inhabitants. Those of Israel are the immediate descendants of historically recent immigrants from many lands abroad.

I am equally in no doubt about the importance of Jerusalem and other hallowed sites in the land to Jewry for religious and related historic-mythological reasons. But then the other two Abrahamic faiths, Christianity and Islam, are likewise stakeholders in that regard.

dagbay wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:54 pm
The right of Jews to live in that land is therefore equally undisputable.
So do I! But only to live there. Not to carve out a state of their own at great cost to the long lived former occupants and owners of centuries duration, the Palestinians. That was what was envisaged by the Balfour Declaration.

Your efforts to denigrate the image of the Palestinians, a typically dishonest Zionist ploy, brings no credit on you at all Dagbay.

Even if this represents "conventional wisdom" in the part of the world where you live you might at least be independent minded enough to shake yourself loose from such erratic thinking.
Ha ha ha "to live there"... Have you any notion of what you are suggesting. Do you know why your country declines Muslim migration? Do you know what happened to Christian Copts in Egypt or Jews in Arab countries? Your philosophy is so unrealistic that it is laughable.
No Neverfail you are fully brainwashed by Muslim propaganda. I've provided you validation in past such exchanges of the remarkable DNA evidence of the unity of the Jews of Ashkenaz and those of Babylonian origins. I also referred you to Joan Peters documented history of the land of Israel including detailed account of the Jewish and Arab claims. She started her research with sources that are far more accurate than wikipedia and was holding your position and after years of research found the reverse to be true.

The name of the state of Israel has not much to do with the name of the former kingdom but with the biblical name of the patriarch Jacob who was renamed Israel. His triumph mirrored the rebirth of the sovereign state for the founding assembly.

(If you had looked up my ip you would had a different opinion of my location and identity. ...)
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

neverfail
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Re: Israel

Post by neverfail » Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:04 am

dagbay wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:55 pm

a ha ha "to live there"... Have you any notion of what you are suggesting. Do you know why your country declines Muslim migration? Do you know what happened to Christian Copts in Egypt or Jews in Arab countries? Your philosophy is so unrealistic that it is laughable.
Yes, I do know about all of that shit Dagbay. I even have resettled Coptic Egyptian acquaintances who have told me about it. It does not justify the Palestinians being used as scapegoats for the sins and crimes committed in other Muslim majority lands.
dagbay wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:55 pm
No Neverfail you are fully brainwashed by Muslim propaganda.


I figured it all out by myself Dagbay against the overwhelming consensus on this website; so you can now safely withdraw that insultingly dismissive remark with due apologies.
dagbay wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:55 pm
I've provided you validation in past such exchanges of the remarkable DNA evidence of the unity of the Jews of Ashkenaz and those of Babylonian origins. I also referred you to Joan Peters documented history of the land of Israel including detailed account of the Jewish and Arab claims. She started her research with sources that are far more accurate than wikipedia and was holding your position and after years of research found the reverse to be true.
Very well, Dagbay! I seem to recall that now and can live with that. But your denial of acknowledgement that for well over 1000 years Arabic speaking gentiles consistently comprised by far the majority population of the holy land demonstrates a blinkered partiality that makes you difficult to reason with on this topic. Nor have you acknowledged that the subsequent loss of their country to a an unprecedented deluge of aggressive foreigners flooding in over the course of the 20th century would give the Palestinians an enduring (and legitimate) sense of grievance over having been robbed of their own country.

(In some of your commentary on the Palestinians I can even sense what I could imagine as the arrogance of Israel's Zionist establishment. Those Palestinians are nothing but no-account goyim rubbish who deserve to be treated with contempt.)

Given the trying circumstances surrounding the emergence of the State of Israel in 1948 I understand that the founders of the State of Israel really had nowhere else to go apart from declaring a sovereign independent state. It was then a fight by the Jewish community for their own survival. That the resident Arabic population had much to fear from the flood-tide influx of Jewish settlers that had preceded it has not been sufficiently acknowledged.
....................................................................................................................................
(A comparative analogy)

From the very beginning of the 20th century right up until 1973 my country had a selective, intentionally discriminatory immigration policy dubbed White Australia (ever heard of it?). The reason for it was that it reflected the widespread perception/fear of the established (then mainly British) settler population of one day finding themselves out-populated by influxes of immigrants from Asia - of indeterminate loyalty to their adopted country and possibly a fifth column weakness in our ability to defend our land from invasive enemy foreign powers. We were not prepared to take chances in those days just in case. Well, had the Palestinians operated their own sovereign state over the same period they in like manner could have erected a similar set of immigration barriers - in their case to prevent the buildup of a Jewish population of likewise indeterminate loyalty in their midst, likewise threatening to their identity and destiny.

Unfortunately, the Palestinians did not have their own sovereign independence so they could not do that. Instead sovereignty was vested in others: first the Ottoman Turks and later in the form of a British league of nations mandate. Both it seems were far too nonchalant about Jewish immigration into Palestine for the good of the local populace.

Were it otherwise by the 1940's there would not have been enough Jews resident to get the State of Israel started.
...............................................................................................................................................
dagbay wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:55 pm
(If you had looked up my ip you would had a different opinion of my location and identity. ...)
I did. It reveals nothing of your location and identity. So would you like to come clean and fill me in?

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dagbay
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Re: Israel

Post by dagbay » Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:10 am

Interesting narrative you have there Neverfail, "Well, had the Palestinians operated their own sovereign state over the same period..." ,
If you only understood how the residents of Hebron Hate those who live in Jenin and those in turn hate the residents of Ramalla then you could understand the bloody killings and that ridiculous hypothesis.
I'll keep you guessing. ..but clearly I am pro Jews in Israel.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

neverfail
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Location: Singapore

Re: Israel

Post by neverfail » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:22 pm

dagbay wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:10 am
Interesting narrative you have there Neverfail, "Well, had the Palestinians operated their own sovereign state over the same period..." ,
If you only understood how the residents of Hebron Hate those who live in Jenin and those in turn hate the residents of Ramalla then you could understand the bloody killings and that ridiculous hypothesis.
I'll keep you guessing. ..but clearly I am pro Jews in Israel.
You are welcome to be "pro-Jews in Israel" Dagbay - I am not even against them myself. But please don't remain in denial over the fact that there were a majority gentile inhabitants in the land of Israel for centuries prior to the arrival of the first Ashkenazim Zionist-idealist settlers from Europe late in the 19th century and that the State of Israel, laudable though its many other achievements may otherwise be, was founded and expanded in a way that cost the Palestinians their country.

To own up to that is merely to acknowledge the truth.

Too much enthusiasm for the advocacy of a pet cause can easily lead to the propagation of lies.

Jim the Moron
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Re: Israel

Post by Jim the Moron » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:34 pm

neverfail wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:22 pm
dagbay wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:10 am
Interesting narrative you have there Neverfail, "Well, had the Palestinians operated their own sovereign state over the same period..." ,
If you only understood how the residents of Hebron Hate those who live in Jenin and those in turn hate the residents of Ramalla then you could understand the bloody killings and that ridiculous hypothesis.
I'll keep you guessing. ..but clearly I am pro Jews in Israel.
You are welcome to be "pro-Jews in Israel" Dagbay - I am not even against them myself. But please don't remain in denial over the fact that there were a majority gentile inhabitants in the land of Israel for centuries prior to the arrival of the first Ashkenazim Zionist-idealist settlers from Europe late in the 19th century and that the State of Israel, laudable though its many other achievements may otherwise be, was founded and expanded in a way that cost the Palestinians their country.

To own up to that is merely to acknowledge the truth.

Too much enthusiasm for the advocacy of a pet cause can easily lead to the propagation of lies.
". . . that cost the Palestinians their country."

What country was that?

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dagbay
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Re: Israel

Post by dagbay » Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:24 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:34 pm
neverfail wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:22 pm
dagbay wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:10 am
Interesting narrative you have there Neverfail, "Well, had the Palestinians operated their own sovereign state over the same period..." ,
If you only understood how the residents of Hebron Hate those who live in Jenin and those in turn hate the residents of Ramalla then you could understand the bloody killings and that ridiculous hypothesis.
I'll keep you guessing. ..but clearly I am pro Jews in Israel.
You are welcome to be "pro-Jews in Israel" Dagbay - I am not even against them myself. But please don't remain in denial over the fact that there were a majority gentile inhabitants in the land of Israel for centuries prior to the arrival of the first Ashkenazim Zionist-idealist settlers from Europe late in the 19th century and that the State of Israel, laudable though its many other achievements may otherwise be, was founded and expanded in a way that cost the Palestinians their country.

To own up to that is merely to acknowledge the truth.

Too much enthusiasm for the advocacy of a pet cause can easily lead to the propagation of lies.
". . . that cost the Palestinians their country."

What country was that?
Narnia. ...
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

Jim the Moron
Posts: 1781
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:51 pm

Re: Israel

Post by Jim the Moron » Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:36 pm

dagbay wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:24 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:34 pm
neverfail wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:22 pm
dagbay wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:10 am
Interesting narrative you have there Neverfail, "Well, had the Palestinians operated their own sovereign state over the same period..." ,
If you only understood how the residents of Hebron Hate those who live in Jenin and those in turn hate the residents of Ramalla then you could understand the bloody killings and that ridiculous hypothesis.
I'll keep you guessing. ..but clearly I am pro Jews in Israel.
You are welcome to be "pro-Jews in Israel" Dagbay - I am not even against them myself. But please don't remain in denial over the fact that there were a majority gentile inhabitants in the land of Israel for centuries prior to the arrival of the first Ashkenazim Zionist-idealist settlers from Europe late in the 19th century and that the State of Israel, laudable though its many other achievements may otherwise be, was founded and expanded in a way that cost the Palestinians their country.

To own up to that is merely to acknowledge the truth.

Too much enthusiasm for the advocacy of a pet cause can easily lead to the propagation of lies.
". . . that cost the Palestinians their country."

What country was that?
Narnia. ...
"Peace plan rolls out"
https://timesofisrael.com/as-peace-plan ... ttlements/

Looks OK, but the mapmakers forgot to label the Palestinian Arab "country" (Narnia).

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Sertorio
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Re: Israel

Post by Sertorio » Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:39 pm

In my opinion the ideal solution would be one single country including Israel and the West Bank, with Arabs living presently in the West Bank becoming citizens of Israel. Those not wishing to take Israeli citizenship should leave Israel. The Gaza Strip should either become an independent state or be taken over by Egypt.

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