Israel

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neverfail
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Re: Israel extending its laws over most of the area of Judea and sumaria

Post by neverfail » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:31 pm

dagbay wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:58 pm
It is unclear at this time if Netanyahu actually intends to follow through with the extention of israeli law over the area of Judea and sumaria or if this is just an election media play. If it does come to pass it will be a belated correction of a 52 year error made in hope that a peace can be negotiated with the Arabs. It should have been obvious even to eternal optimists a few years after the 6 day war that it will not happen. That should have been done immediatly when king Husain of Jordan detached his kingdom from the Arabs in Judea and sumaria and cancelled their Jordanian citizenship. This would be a step to fix the problem and a practical one at that.
"Judea plus Samaria" = the West Bank?

Hitler and his Nazi comrades had the same idea with the Slav peoples to the east of the Third Reich; get rid of all of the Poles and Russians in order to create annexed Wohnraum (living space) for the expanding German population. As a Jewish person does it not give you qualms of guilty conscience that the State of Israel should hanker to disposes the Palestinian Arabs of their lands and birthright for Israel's expanding Jewish population in the same way that Hitler's crowd wanted to disposes their Untermenschen (sub-humans) to the east?

Bloody hell! Year by year the Israeli government permits bands of interested (mainly Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox) Jews to form settlements in the West Bank - by implication shrinking the potential terrestrial size of a future Palestinian state. Is that supposed to inspire trust and confidence among the Palestinians for the integrity of Israel?

Too much damned chutzpah for my liking - and the more Orthodox they are the worse they seem to become.

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Sertorio
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Re: Israel extending its laws over most of the area of Judea and sumaria

Post by Sertorio » Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:20 am

neverfail wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:31 pm
dagbay wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:58 pm
It is unclear at this time if Netanyahu actually intends to follow through with the extention of israeli law over the area of Judea and sumaria or if this is just an election media play. If it does come to pass it will be a belated correction of a 52 year error made in hope that a peace can be negotiated with the Arabs. It should have been obvious even to eternal optimists a few years after the 6 day war that it will not happen. That should have been done immediatly when king Husain of Jordan detached his kingdom from the Arabs in Judea and sumaria and cancelled their Jordanian citizenship. This would be a step to fix the problem and a practical one at that.
"Judea plus Samaria" = the West Bank?

Hitler and his Nazi comrades had the same idea with the Slav peoples to the east of the Third Reich; get rid of all of the Poles and Russians in order to create annexed Wohnraum (living space) for the expanding German population. As a Jewish person does it not give you qualms of guilty conscience that the State of Israel should hanker to disposes the Palestinian Arabs of their lands and birthright for Israel's expanding Jewish population in the same way that Hitler's crowd wanted to disposes their Untermenschen (sub-humans) to the east?

Bloody hell! Year by year the Israeli government permits bands of interested (mainly Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox) Jews to form settlements in the West Bank - by implication shrinking the potential terrestrial size of a future Palestinian state. Is that supposed to inspire trust and confidence among the Palestinians for the integrity of Israel?

Too much damned chutzpah for my liking - and the more Orthodox they are the worse they seem to become.
Arabs have plenty of room in the ME and ample opportunities to have states of their own where their culture may thrive. The world will be a better place if Israel has sovereignty over the whole of Palestine. And Palestinian Arabs living in Palestine should be given the option of becoming Israeli citizens, which would be of great benefit to them.

neverfail
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Re: Israel extending its laws over most of the area of Judea and sumaria

Post by neverfail » Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:04 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:20 am

Arabs have plenty of room in the ME and ample opportunities to have states of their own where their culture may thrive. The world will be a better place if Israel has sovereignty over the whole of Palestine. And Palestinian Arabs living in Palestine should be given the option of becoming Israeli citizens, which would be of great benefit to them.
If we lived in an ideal world that is how it would be. Unfortunately, the world we live in is far from ideal.

A visiting Israeli journalist once revealed to me and a group of others at a meeting how, whenever a new (right wing) coalition government is formed in the Israeli Knesset (parliament); the resultant multi-party coalition government always includes a small religious party representing mainly Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox Jews. That party always bargains for and gets the Housing ministry as the price of its cooperation with the other parties in the government. Having gained control of the Housing ministry and its budget they then proceed to build settlements on Palestinian land in the West Bank to house communities of Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox Jewish settlers.

I get the impression that whereas a fairly typical "secular" Isreali Jew would take the old religious mythology of being God's chosen people with a grain or two of salt (I believe that around one in four are agnostics anyway); those Orthodox and Ultra types believe it to be literally true. Worse still, I believe that a lot of them lean towards the assumption that being God's chosen entitles one to certain preemptive rights and privileges. It also means that as long as you have the power to get your own way you can afford to treat the ungodly Goyim (like Palestinian Arabs) with utter contempt.

In summary, the seizure of Palestinian land is a bi-product of political indiscipline within the Knesset reflecting factionalism within Israeli society at large. Israel seems to be as bad as Italy in that regard - though Israeli coalition governments, I notice, tend to be longer lived than their Italian peers. Yet if I were a typical Palestinian it would probably look to me like the State of Israel is two-faced untrustworthy and cannot be relied upon to keep its word.

As for Palestinian politics - the less said the better.

Jim the Moron
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Re: Israel

Post by Jim the Moron » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:28 pm

We should hope that after the forthcoming elections Israel extends its national boundaries to include the Jordan Valley. That wouldn't end the savage behavior of Arabs both within and outside the boundaries, but it would enhance security and the rule of law.

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dagbay
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Re: Israel extending its laws over most of the area of Judea and sumaria

Post by dagbay » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:19 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:04 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:20 am

Arabs have plenty of room in the ME and ample opportunities to have states of their own where their culture may thrive. The world will be a better place if Israel has sovereignty over the whole of Palestine. And Palestinian Arabs living in Palestine should be given the option of becoming Israeli citizens, which would be of great benefit to them.
If we lived in an ideal world that is how it would be. Unfortunately, the world we live in is far from ideal.

A visiting Israeli journalist once revealed to me and a group of others at a meeting how, whenever a new (right wing) coalition government is formed in the Israeli Knesset (parliament); the resultant multi-party coalition government always includes a small religious party representing mainly Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox Jews. That party always bargains for and gets the Housing ministry as the price of its cooperation with the other parties in the government. Having gained control of the Housing ministry and its budget they then proceed to build settlements on Palestinian land in the West Bank to house communities of Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox Jewish settlers.

I get the impression that whereas a fairly typical "secular" Isreali Jew would take the old religious mythology of being God's chosen people with a grain or two of salt (I believe that around one in four are agnostics anyway); those Orthodox and Ultra types believe it to be literally true. Worse still, I believe that a lot of them lean towards the assumption that being God's chosen entitles one to certain preemptive rights and privileges. It also means that as long as you have the power to get your own way you can afford to treat the ungodly Goyim (like Palestinian Arabs) with utter contempt.

In summary, the seizure of Palestinian land is a bi-product of political indiscipline within the Knesset reflecting factionalism within Israeli society at large. Israel seems to be as bad as Italy in that regard - though Israeli coalition governments, I notice, tend to be longer lived than their Italian peers. Yet if I were a typical Palestinian it would probably look to me like the State of Israel is two-faced untrustworthy and cannot be relied upon to keep its word.

As for Palestinian politics - the less said the better.
The makeup of the Israeli Parliament the Kenesset effects the way that policy is made but your journalist (lefty) reveal to you the parties form a coalition to govern which gives powered to the smaller parties in it to bargi. That system may give 'undeserved' more political power to those small parties but they still represent well the wishes of the voting public. The settlement of any part of Israel by jewish people seems to bother you only when it applies to specific territory but to the Arabs settlement in any place is an abomination. Those imaginary boundaries that were created for propaganda against Israel are irrelevant to Arabs they would never settle on anything less than 100%.
Irrespective, the strange rules that you apply to israel were never before or later observed anywhere in the history of the world. Why don't you carry the same rules to Australia who formed on the land taken from the Aboriginal inhabitants. America who took the land from the Indians or Spain who colonised south America and subjegated it's aboriginal inhabitants. How do any people in your mind become the 'rightful' owners of a land? What makes the boarders of Denemark or Jordan rightful and those of Israel a subject of debate for you?
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

neverfail
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Re: Israel extending its laws over most of the area of Judea and sumaria

Post by neverfail » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:30 pm

dagbay wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:19 pm

The makeup of the Israeli Parliament the Kenesset effects the way that policy is made but your journalist (lefty) reveal to you the parties form a coalition to govern which gives powered to the smaller parties in it to bargi. That system may give 'undeserved' more political power to those small parties but they still represent well the wishes of the voting public. The settlement of any part of Israel by jewish people seems to bother you only when it applies to specific territory but to the Arabs settlement in any place is an abomination. Those imaginary boundaries that were created for propaganda against Israel are irrelevant to Arabs they would never settle on anything less than 100%.
Irrespective, the strange rules that you apply to israel were never before or later observed anywhere in the history of the world. Why don't you carry the same rules to Australia who formed on the land taken from the Aboriginal inhabitants. America who took the land from the Indians or Spain who colonised south America and subjegated it's aboriginal inhabitants. How do any people in your mind become the 'rightful' owners of a land? What makes the boarders of Denemark or Jordan rightful and those of Israel a subject of debate for you?
I was just attempting to provide a reason as to why the Palestinian Arabs have not entered into a peace treaty with Israel - they don't trust it. The regular annexation of their land by bands of settlers with the complicity of the Israeli government gives them good reason to be mistrustful.

The comparison with Australia and the Aboriginals is spurious and misleading. Out here we gave up annexing additional land generations ago and in recent decades quite a bit of land had been returned to the tribes.

The state of Israel should follow our shining example and likewise (1) cease attempting to expand its bounds at the expense of its neighbors and (2) return to Palestinians landed property formerly taken from them. :D

The era of playing cowboys and Indians in real life is long past. Why should Israel remain out of step?

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Milo
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Re: Israel extending its laws over most of the area of Judea and sumaria

Post by Milo » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:45 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:30 pm
dagbay wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:19 pm

The makeup of the Israeli Parliament the Kenesset effects the way that policy is made but your journalist (lefty) reveal to you the parties form a coalition to govern which gives powered to the smaller parties in it to bargi. That system may give 'undeserved' more political power to those small parties but they still represent well the wishes of the voting public. The settlement of any part of Israel by jewish people seems to bother you only when it applies to specific territory but to the Arabs settlement in any place is an abomination. Those imaginary boundaries that were created for propaganda against Israel are irrelevant to Arabs they would never settle on anything less than 100%.
Irrespective, the strange rules that you apply to israel were never before or later observed anywhere in the history of the world. Why don't you carry the same rules to Australia who formed on the land taken from the Aboriginal inhabitants. America who took the land from the Indians or Spain who colonised south America and subjegated it's aboriginal inhabitants. How do any people in your mind become the 'rightful' owners of a land? What makes the boarders of Denemark or Jordan rightful and those of Israel a subject of debate for you?
I was just attempting to provide a reason as to why the Palestinian Arabs have not entered into a peace treaty with Israel - they don't trust it. The regular annexation of their land by bands of settlers with the complicity of the Israeli government gives them good reason to be mistrustful.

The comparison with Australia and the Aboriginals is spurious and misleading. Out here we gave up annexing additional land generations ago and in recent decades quite a bit of land had been returned to the tribes.

The state of Israel should follow our shining example and likewise (1) cease attempting to expand its bounds at the expense of its neighbors and (2) return to Palestinians landed property formerly taken from them. :D

The era of playing cowboys and Indians in real life is long past. Why should Israel remain out of step?
Israel has returned nearly all the land it took by force already.

neverfail
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Re: Israel extending its laws over most of the area of Judea and sumaria

Post by neverfail » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:53 pm

Milo wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:45 pm
Israel has returned nearly all the land it took by force already.
Like where and when?

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Milo
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Re: Israel extending its laws over most of the area of Judea and sumaria

Post by Milo » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:17 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:53 pm
Milo wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:45 pm
Israel has returned nearly all the land it took by force already.
Like where and when?
The peace treaty between Egypt and Israel was signed 16 months after Egyptian president Anwar Sadat's visit to Israel in 1977 after intense negotiation. The main features of the treaty were mutual recognition, cessation of the state of war that had existed since the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, normalization of relations and the complete withdrawal by Israel of its armed forces and civilians from the Sinai Peninsula which Israel had captured during the Six-Day War in 1967. Egypt agreed to leave the area demilitarized. The agreement also provided for the free passage of Israeli ships through the Suez Canal, and recognition of the Strait of Tiran and the Gulf of Aqaba as international waterways.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt–I ... ace_Treaty
The Israeli disengagement from Gaza (Hebrew: תוכנית ההתנתקות, Tokhnit HaHitnatkut; in the Disengagement Plan Implementation Law), also known as "Gaza expulsion" and "Hitnatkut", was the withdrawal of the Israeli army from inside the Gaza Strip, and the dismantling of all Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip in 2005.[1]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli ... _from_Gaza
The Oslo Accords, signed between the Palestine Liberation Organization and Israel, created administrative districts with varying levels of Palestinian autonomy within each area. Area C, in which Israel maintained complete civil and security control, accounts for over 60% of the territory of the West Bank.[7]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank
The Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon took place after Israel invaded Lebanon during the 1982 Lebanon War and subsequently retained its forces to support the Christian South Lebanon Army in Southern Lebanon. In 1982, the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) and allied Free Lebanon Army Christian militias seized large sections of Lebanon, including the capital of Beirut, amid the hostilities of the wider Lebanese Civil War. Later, Israel withdrew from parts of the occupied area between 1983 and 1985, but remained in partial control of the border region known as the South Lebanon Security Belt, initially in coordination with the self-proclaimed Free Lebanon State, which executed a limited authority over portions of southern Lebanon until 1984, and later with the South Lebanon Army (transformed from Free Lebanon Army), until the year 2000.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli ... rn_Lebanon

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dagbay
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Re: Israel

Post by dagbay » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:10 am

Milo wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:17 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:53 pm
Milo wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:45 pm
Israel has returned nearly all the land it took by force already.
Like where and when?
The peace treaty between Egypt and Israel was signed 16 months after Egyptian president Anwar Sadat's visit to Israel in 1977 after intense negotiation. The main features of the treaty were mutual recognition, cessation of the state of war that had existed since the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, normalization of relations and the complete withdrawal by Israel of its armed forces and civilians from the Sinai Peninsula which Israel had captured during the Six-Day War in 1967. Egypt agreed to leave the area demilitarized. The agreement also provided for the free passage of Israeli ships through the Suez Canal, and recognition of the Strait of Tiran and the Gulf of Aqaba as international waterways.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt–I ... ace_Treaty
The Israeli disengagement from Gaza (Hebrew: תוכנית ההתנתקות, Tokhnit HaHitnatkut; in the Disengagement Plan Implementation Law), also known as "Gaza expulsion" and "Hitnatkut", was the withdrawal of the Israeli army from inside the Gaza Strip, and the dismantling of all Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip in 2005.[1]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli ... _from_Gaza
The Oslo Accords, signed between the Palestine Liberation Organization and Israel, created administrative districts with varying levels of Palestinian autonomy within each area. Area C, in which Israel maintained complete civil and security control, accounts for over 60% of the territory of the West Bank.[7]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank
The Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon took place after Israel invaded Lebanon during the 1982 Lebanon War and subsequently retained its forces to support the Christian South Lebanon Army in Southern Lebanon. In 1982, the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) and allied Free Lebanon Army Christian militias seized large sections of Lebanon, including the capital of Beirut, amid the hostilities of the wider Lebanese Civil War. Later, Israel withdrew from parts of the occupied area between 1983 and 1985, but remained in partial control of the border region known as the South Lebanon Security Belt, initially in coordination with the self-proclaimed Free Lebanon State, which executed a limited authority over portions of southern Lebanon until 1984, and later with the South Lebanon Army (transformed from Free Lebanon Army), until the year 2000.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli ... rn_Lebanon
And look at the consequences of these actions. A base for terror and terrible damage was established in Gaza and Lebanon, a terror base for ISIS in the vacated Sini peninsula where a cold peace (but a peaceful forced cooperation) endures spotted by mass killings of Eygeptian soldiers in the ever expanding SuShi wars and similar instability requiring Israeli security support to prop up that country's ruler in Jordan (as has been done occasionally since the 1950's.).
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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