Israel

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dagbay
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Re: Israel

Post by dagbay » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:20 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:02 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:42 am
dagbay describes with authority the exodus ("for almost 2 decades") of Muslims from Israel and Gaza - to Europe and South America. Unfortunate for the recipients, but less of a burden for civilized folks (mainly Israelis) wishing to live in peace in the Levant.
In carving out a homeland for the unloved Jews of Europe the Zionist founders of the State of Israel turned the former occupants into a nation of exiles. If that constitutes "civilized" behavior then you must believe that two wrongs add up to a right.
Dear Neverfail, I chose to quote the above out of all the recent posts of yours but they all have serious falsehoods. I urge you to research the facts rather than stick to well accepted often repeated falsehoods.
1. The state of Israel was founded with a population of approximately 600k people 25% of which lived in the land over 2 decades prior. The rest mostly came from Europe but many of those were originally from north African Arab countries who were shipped to Europe by the Nazis (look for the deportation of the jews of Libya, Tunisia and Algeria.)
Following the war of independence Israel absorbed and repatriated over 1M jews that were expelled from the Arab countries including Iraq, Lebanon, Eygept, Syria and others. That expulsion mirrored the Nazi effort and was intended to create a Jew free Arab land.
2. Arabs have twisted the notion of "refugees" in a unique way to suit their agenda of bashing israel. The Arabs influenced the UN to declare as refugees any Arab who lived in the land of Israel During the LAST TWO YEARS prior to the declaration of independence of Israel AND to all their decents in perpetuity. If you ask yourself why those particular years you can find the answer in the British census which shows a huge influx of Arabs into the area in those two years (mostly labor migrants).
3. You are part correct about the dwindling sea of Galilee prior to Israel's industrial desalination BUT you neglected to look into the full picture. You see, both Lebanon and Syria erected massive dams in the 80's and 90's on the 3 rivers that feed into the northern lake. That massively reduced the water intake, Israeli agriculture had undergone water rationing and most of it was discontinued. Now desalination accounts for 60% of Israel's consumption while 92% of the water used is recycled at least twice.
Shoreline aside, israel is growing most of the produce in its southern desert on desalinatied and brakish waters from the Red Sea. Why does Bahrain use Israeli desalination tech and not Jordan?

But on one thing you are absolutely correct I am impressed and amazed at the achievements of Israel which were reached in spite of the adverse local relations with the Arabs. These are all the work of many individuals each in his area of expertise.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

neverfail
Posts: 4128
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Location: Singapore

Re: Israel

Post by neverfail » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:13 am

dagbay wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:20 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:02 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:42 am
dagbay describes with authority the exodus ("for almost 2 decades") of Muslims from Israel and Gaza - to Europe and South America. Unfortunate for the recipients, but less of a burden for civilized folks (mainly Israelis) wishing to live in peace in the Levant.
In carving out a homeland for the unloved Jews of Europe the Zionist founders of the State of Israel turned the former occupants into a nation of exiles. If that constitutes "civilized" behavior then you must believe that two wrongs add up to a right.
Dear Neverfail, I chose to quote the above out of all the recent posts of yours but they all have serious falsehoods. I urge you to research the facts rather than stick to well accepted often repeated falsehoods.
1. The state of Israel was founded with a population of approximately 600k people 25% of which lived in the land over 2 decades prior. The rest mostly came from Europe but many of those were originally from north African Arab countries who were shipped to Europe by the Nazis (look for the deportation of the jews of Libya, Tunisia and Algeria.)
Following the war of independence Israel absorbed and repatriated over 1M jews that were expelled from the Arab countries including Iraq, Lebanon, Eygept, Syria and others. That expulsion mirrored the Nazi effort and was intended to create a Jew free Arab land.
2. Arabs have twisted the notion of "refugees" in a unique way to suit their agenda of bashing israel. The Arabs influenced the UN to declare as refugees any Arab who lived in the land of Israel During the LAST TWO YEARS prior to the declaration of independence of Israel AND to all their decents in perpetuity. If you ask yourself why those particular years you can find the answer in the British census which shows a huge influx of Arabs into the area in those two years (mostly labor migrants).
3. You are part correct about the dwindling sea of Galilee prior to Israel's industrial desalination BUT you neglected to look into the full picture. You see, both Lebanon and Syria erected massive dams in the 80's and 90's on the 3 rivers that feed into the northern lake. That massively reduced the water intake, Israeli agriculture had undergone water rationing and most of it was discontinued. Now desalination accounts for 60% of Israel's consumption while 92% of the water used is recycled at least twice.
Shoreline aside, israel is growing most of the produce in its southern desert on desalinatied and brakish waters from the Red Sea. Why does Bahrain use Israeli desalination tech and not Jordan?

But on one thing you are absolutely correct I am impressed and amazed at the achievements of Israel which were reached in spite of the adverse local relations with the Arabs. These are all the work of many individuals each in his area of expertise.
I take note of your observations with due respect Dagbay. Yet my earlier contention remains intact. Thew founding of the State of Israel pushed out the former Palestinian occupants. Even though it subsequently absorbed many displaced Jews from elsewhere in the Middle East and North Africa it remains an undeniable fact that the modern state of Israel was and is an Ashkenazim construct.

I do not know for what reason there could have been any influx of Arabs from elsewhere into Palestine in the 2 years before independence - unless the British (whose mandated territory Palestine previously was) needed labor and could not trust either local Arabs or local Jews (very likely) to do the work without trying to kill them. It could not have possibly have been due to the enterprise of Jewish settlers. If Jewish settlers in those days had need to hire labor unerringly they would give the work to fellow Jews. As displaced Jews were at the time flooding in in large numbers there would have been no shortage to employ.

In any case the Palestinian Arabs who were driven out of their homes were NOT transitory guest workers but mainly local householders who had lived there usually for generations. You and others try to muddy the waters by pretending otherwise by raising this "latter day Arab influx" red herring.

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dagbay
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Re: Israel

Post by dagbay » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:12 pm

neverfail wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:13 am
dagbay wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:20 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:02 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:42 am
dagbay describes with authority the exodus ("for almost 2 decades") of Muslims from Israel and Gaza - to Europe and South America. Unfortunate for the recipients, but less of a burden for civilized folks (mainly Israelis) wishing to live in peace in the Levant.
In carving out a homeland for the unloved Jews of Europe the Zionist founders of the State of Israel turned the former occupants into a nation of exiles. If that constitutes "civilized" behavior then you must believe that two wrongs add up to a right.
Dear Neverfail, I chose to quote the above out of all the recent posts of yours but they all have serious falsehoods. I urge you to research the facts rather than stick to well accepted often repeated falsehoods.
1. The state of Israel was founded with a population of approximately 600k people 25% of which lived in the land over 2 decades prior. The rest mostly came from Europe but many of those were originally from north African Arab countries who were shipped to Europe by the Nazis (look for the deportation of the jews of Libya, Tunisia and Algeria.)
Following the war of independence Israel absorbed and repatriated over 1M jews that were expelled from the Arab countries including Iraq, Lebanon, Eygept, Syria and others. That expulsion mirrored the Nazi effort and was intended to create a Jew free Arab land.
2. Arabs have twisted the notion of "refugees" in a unique way to suit their agenda of bashing israel. The Arabs influenced the UN to declare as refugees any Arab who lived in the land of Israel During the LAST TWO YEARS prior to the declaration of independence of Israel AND to all their decents in perpetuity. If you ask yourself why those particular years you can find the answer in the British census which shows a huge influx of Arabs into the area in those two years (mostly labor migrants).
3. You are part correct about the dwindling sea of Galilee prior to Israel's industrial desalination BUT you neglected to look into the full picture. You see, both Lebanon and Syria erected massive dams in the 80's and 90's on the 3 rivers that feed into the northern lake. That massively reduced the water intake, Israeli agriculture had undergone water rationing and most of it was discontinued. Now desalination accounts for 60% of Israel's consumption while 92% of the water used is recycled at least twice.
Shoreline aside, israel is growing most of the produce in its southern desert on desalinatied and brakish waters from the Red Sea. Why does Bahrain use Israeli desalination tech and not Jordan?

But on one thing you are absolutely correct I am impressed and amazed at the achievements of Israel which were reached in spite of the adverse local relations with the Arabs. These are all the work of many individuals each in his area of expertise.
I take note of your observations with due respect Dagbay. Yet my earlier contention remains intact. Thew founding of the State of Israel pushed out the former Palestinian occupants. Even though it subsequently absorbed many displaced Jews from elsewhere in the Middle East and North Africa it remains an undeniable fact that the modern state of Israel was and is an Ashkenazim construct.

I do not know for what reason there could have been any influx of Arabs from elsewhere into Palestine in the 2 years before independence - unless the British (whose mandated territory Palestine previously was) needed labor and could not trust either local Arabs or local Jews (very likely) to do the work without trying to kill them. It could not have possibly have been due to the enterprise of Jewish settlers. If Jewish settlers in those days had need to hire labor unerringly they would give the work to fellow Jews. As displaced Jews were at the time flooding in in large numbers there would have been no shortage to employ.

In any case the Palestinian Arabs who were driven out of their homes were NOT transitory guest workers but mainly local householders who had lived there usually for generations. You and others try to muddy the waters by pretending otherwise by raising this "latter day Arab influx" red herring.
I take issue with your statement "Even though it subsequently absorbed many displaced Jews from elsewhere in the Middle East and North Africa it remains an undeniable fact that the modern state of Israel was and is an Ashkenazim construct". Particularly what makes it so? It is not the current makeup of the population which is overwhelmingly of spharadi ie ME decent. It is not by the makeup of its political leadership which is split similar to the makeup of the citizenry. So what is ýour criteria?
Second is the issue of the "red herring" you claim of the transient nature of the Arabs who migrated into the British mandate area encouraged by the British and which is a well documented fact. This is not to claim that there were no Arabs who lived in the land for generations which is also a documented fact as is the Jewish populations of Jerusalem and Hebron which lived there for centuries. In the establishment of Israel Arabs were called upon to stay but r he chose to clear at the request of the Arab armies. The clensing of Arabs lands from their jewish citizens was a coordinated and forced evacuation.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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Sertorio
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Re: Israel

Post by Sertorio » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:46 am

The historic and legal aspects of population movements in the ME may be discussed forever, but personally I prefer a thousand times a Palestine controled and inhabited by civilized Jews than by mostly underdeveloped Arabs who have plenty of other places to settle.

neverfail
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Location: Singapore

Re: Israel

Post by neverfail » Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:04 am

dagbay wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:12 pm
neverfail wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:13 am


I take note of your observations with due respect Dagbay. Yet my earlier contention remains intact. Thew founding of the State of Israel pushed out the former Palestinian occupants. Even though it subsequently absorbed many displaced Jews from elsewhere in the Middle East and North Africa it remains an undeniable fact that the modern state of Israel was and is an Ashkenazim construct.

I do not know for what reason there could have been any influx of Arabs from elsewhere into Palestine in the 2 years before independence - unless the British (whose mandated territory Palestine previously was) needed labor and could not trust either local Arabs or local Jews (very likely) to do the work without trying to kill them. It could not have possibly have been due to the enterprise of Jewish settlers. If Jewish settlers in those days had need to hire labor unerringly they would give the work to fellow Jews. As displaced Jews were at the time flooding in in large numbers there would have been no shortage to employ.

In any case the Palestinian Arabs who were driven out of their homes were NOT transitory guest workers but mainly local householders who had lived there usually for generations. You and others try to muddy the waters by pretending otherwise by raising this "latter day Arab influx" red herring.
I take issue with your statement "Even though it subsequently absorbed many displaced Jews from elsewhere in the Middle East and North Africa it remains an undeniable fact that the modern state of Israel was and is an Ashkenazim construct". Particularly what makes it so? It is not the current makeup of the population which is overwhelmingly of Sephardi ie ME decent. It is not by the makeup of its political leadership which is split similar to the makeup of the citizenry. So what is ýour criteria?
The complexion of Israel's Jewish population has changed markedly since independence in 1948. From the arrival of the first settlers in the late 19th century the founding pioneers were Ashkenazim.

Theodore Herzl, the founder of modern Zionism was Ashkenazim.

David Ben-Gurion was Ashkenazim....

...and so on!

Those idealistic early Ashkenazim pioneers (one might say) carved out a suitable land where Sephardi could withdraw to when their turn came to be mass-evicted from Islamic lands in the ME and North Africa; where in most cases they has lived for centuries in apparent equanimity with the locals.

Of course, those mass evictions were a direct reaction to the emergence of Israel as a sovereign state. If the state of Israel had never come into existence those Sephardi Jews could likely have gone on living in their countries of birth for centuries more.

(It never ceases to amaze me: you Jewish types really know how to make yourselves loved, don't you? :D )

dagbay wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:12 pm
Second is the issue of the "red herring" you claim of the transient nature of the Arabs who migrated into the British mandate area encouraged by the British and which is a well documented fact. This is not to claim that there were no Arabs who lived in the land for generations which is also a documented fact as is the Jewish populations of Jerusalem and Hebron which lived there for centuries. In the establishment of Israel Arabs were called upon to stay but r he chose to clear at the request of the Arab armies. The clensing of Arabs lands from their jewish citizens was a coordinated and forced evacuation.
Yes, token numbers of Jews had,as you claim, lived in Jerusalem and Hebron for centuries but that is not to say that they formed the majority population in either location. The point is that Israel had been ruled by foreign powers consistently for at least 2 millennia before Israeli independence and the majority population even in Judea (which is where the name Jew is derived from I believe) has been predominantly non-Jewish for almost as long.

( Indeed, Jerusalem ceased to be Jewish in population in 66AD when the Roman army wasted the city as part of its campaign to crush the zealot revolt. Arguably a form of divine retribution for having rejected Jesus Christ. The former Jewish lands did not remain empty - gentile settlers must have moved in to replace them. On the basis of the argument purporting unbroken occupancy therefore I cannot see how there is justification for a reborn Jewish state of Israel. Better if Jewish people had accepted their ancestral loss of country as the will of God.)

"Encouraged by the British?" As the British were on their way out (Palestine was after all only a League of Nations mandated territory: not an annexed colony of the British Empire that they could do whatever they liked with) they would have had no reason to encourage Arab migration into the area with a view to their permanent settlement. I can only conclude that the British hired them to do work that they could not rely upon either local Arabs nor Jewish settlers (both of whom were waging insurgency war against the Brits along with each other) to do.

I know that with the advance of Israeli forces (against the odds) in 1948 the resident Palestinian Arabs were incited to flee by their homes by their own leaders and the foolish buggers did. However, had Israel not declared its independence triggering the Arab reaction -

1. invasion by 5 separate Arab states armies

2. the mass expulsion of Jews from the ME and North African states especially after the Arabs lost.

then the Palestinians would not have had any incentive to flee their homes nor their leaders any incentive to incite them to do so.

In any case, those displaced Palestinian Arabs have never been allowed back into Israel to recover their lost property since. Understandably so. The Israelis clearly do not trust them.

Jim the Moron
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Re: Israel

Post by Jim the Moron » Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:13 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:46 am
The historic and legal aspects of population movements in the ME may be discussed forever, but personally I prefer a thousand times a Palestine controled and inhabited by civilized Jews than by mostly underdeveloped Arabs who have plenty of other places to settle.
Worthwhile discussion here. Fortunately, we have dagbay who knows what he is talking about.

Agree 100% with Sertorio. The whole of Judea and Samaria should be within Israel's national boundaries. But we must respect dagbay's suggested compromise.

neverfail
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Location: Singapore

Re: Israel is of admirable acheivement but dubious legetimacy

Post by neverfail » Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:17 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:13 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:46 am
The historic and legal aspects of population movements in the ME may be discussed forever, but personally I prefer a thousand times a Palestine controled and inhabited by civilized Jews than by mostly underdeveloped Arabs who have plenty of other places to settle.
Worthwhile discussion here. Fortunately, we have dagbay who knows what he is talking about.

Agree 100% with Sertorio. The whole of Judea and Samaria should be within Israel's national boundaries. But we must respect dagbay's suggested compromise.
Conceded, the State of Israel excites admiration for its many achievements (often against the odds) even by me: though its origins (with historical hindsight) appear to be rather shady.

The last preceding sovereign State of Israel; the one ruled in its latter phase by the Herodian dynasty of kings, was extinguished by Roman arms during the crushing of the Zealot revolt in the first century AD. The Zionist claim that the space between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea is rightfully Jewish therefore seems to be utterly spurious.

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dagbay
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Re: Israel

Post by dagbay » Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:01 pm

neverfail wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:17 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:13 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:46 am
The historic and legal aspects of population movements in the ME may be discussed forever, but personally I prefer a thousand times a Palestine controled and inhabited by civilized Jews than by mostly underdeveloped Arabs who have plenty of other places to settle.
Worthwhile discussion here. Fortunately, we have dagbay who knows what he is talking about.

Agree 100% with Sertorio. The whole of Judea and Samaria should be within Israel's national boundaries. But we must respect dagbay's suggested compromise.
Conceded, the State of Israel excites admiration for its many achievements (often against the odds) even by me: though its origins (with historical hindsight) appear to be rather shady.

The last preceding sovereign State of Israel; the one ruled in its latter phase by the Herodian dynasty of kings, was extinguished by Roman arms during the crushing of the Zealot revolt in the first century AD. The Zionist claim that the space between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea is rightfully Jewish therefore seems to be utterly spurious.
As any such complex dispute there are many points of view some have better standing in history than others. But Neverfail, I would like to correct your concept of the "peaceful coexistence of Jews in Arab lands pre 1948. So the facts are very different; jews lived in various Arab countries from the Biblical expulsion times so well over milenia. But that existance was far from peaceful as Arabs have perpetrated riots on their jewish neighbors periodically. Every facade or two jews had to suffer casualties to Arab madness. Notable cases of recent times are the riots of 1921 and 1940 aka the Farhud. Jews were robbed an mass businesses looted and lives taken. These were coordinated events across the region and in lockstep with the Nazi rise in Germany. The riots that eliminated the majority of Jews in Jerusalem and Hebron, zfat had been a part of this stream of killings. BTW the small remaining jewish population of Iraq and in North Africa suffered the same periodic killings after 1948 in the late 1950's and after the 6 day war.

Sadly Jews are being hated for various reasons for a couple of millenia. I hope that jews find a way to quell these feelings of hate without giving up their culture.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

neverfail
Posts: 4128
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am
Location: Singapore

Re: Israel

Post by neverfail » Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:24 pm

dagbay wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:01 pm

As any such complex dispute there are many points of view some have better standing in history than others. But Neverfail, I would like to correct your concept of the "peaceful coexistence of Jews in Arab lands pre 1948. So the facts are very different; jews lived in various Arab countries from the Biblical expulsion times so well over milenia. But that existance was far from peaceful as Arabs have perpetrated riots on their jewish neighbors periodically. Every facade or two jews had to suffer casualties to Arab madness. Notable cases of recent times are the riots of 1921 and 1940 aka the Farhud. Jews were robbed an mass businesses looted and lives taken. These were coordinated events across the region and in lockstep with the Nazi rise in Germany. The riots that eliminated the majority of Jews in Jerusalem and Hebron, zfat had been a part of this stream of killings. BTW the small remaining jewish population of Iraq and in North Africa suffered the same periodic killings after 1948 in the late 1950's and after the 6 day war.
Thank you Dagbay. I appreciate that correction.

It reads to me like as if a broad replica of that which their Ashkenazim brethren suffered in central and eastern Europe was happening to Jews resident in the Islamic lands. That corrects my previous impression to the contrary.

Yet going back beyond the latter 19th into early 20th century rise of nationalism and antisemitism in Europe and abroad; I have often gained the impression that as long as they paid their sharia taxes Jews resident in lands of Islamic heritage were usually treated better than in the lands of Christian heritage.

Dagbay, with historical hindsight: perhaps during the approx. 19 centuries of the diaspora your fellow-Jewry would have been better off had they mass-migrated to some part of the world where they worshiped multiple deities like India instead of lodging themselves in regions of broadly kindred, Abrahamic - monotheist faiths where competition for the favor of the same God was bound to eventually bring the two into conflict - to the detriment of demographically smaller of the two.

Sadly Jews are being hated for various reasons for a couple of millenia. I hope that jews find a way to quell these feelings of hate without giving up their culture.
[/quote]

Amen!

Jim the Moron
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:51 pm

Re: Israel

Post by Jim the Moron » Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:17 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:24 pm
dagbay wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:01 pm

As any such complex dispute there are many points of view some have better standing in history than others. But Neverfail, I would like to correct your concept of the "peaceful coexistence of Jews in Arab lands pre 1948. So the facts are very different; jews lived in various Arab countries from the Biblical expulsion times so well over milenia. But that existance was far from peaceful as Arabs have perpetrated riots on their jewish neighbors periodically. Every facade or two jews had to suffer casualties to Arab madness. Notable cases of recent times are the riots of 1921 and 1940 aka the Farhud. Jews were robbed an mass businesses looted and lives taken. These were coordinated events across the region and in lockstep with the Nazi rise in Germany. The riots that eliminated the majority of Jews in Jerusalem and Hebron, zfat had been a part of this stream of killings. BTW the small remaining jewish population of Iraq and in North Africa suffered the same periodic killings after 1948 in the late 1950's and after the 6 day war.
Thank you Dagbay. I appreciate that correction.

It reads to me like as if a broad replica of that which their Ashkenazim brethren suffered in central and eastern Europe was happening to Jews resident in the Islamic lands. That corrects my previous impression to the contrary.

Yet going back beyond the latter 19th into early 20th century rise of nationalism and antisemitism in Europe and abroad; I have often gained the impression that as long as they paid their sharia taxes Jews resident in lands of Islamic heritage were usually treated better than in the lands of Christian heritage.

Dagbay, with historical hindsight: perhaps during the approx. 19 centuries of the diaspora your fellow-Jewry would have been better off had they mass-migrated to some part of the world where they worshiped multiple deities like India instead of lodging themselves in regions of broadly kindred, Abrahamic - monotheist faiths where competition for the favor of the same God was bound to eventually bring the two into conflict - to the detriment of demographically smaller of the two.

Sadly Jews are being hated for various reasons for a couple of millenia. I hope that jews find a way to quell these feelings of hate without giving up their culture.
Amen!
[/quote]

It's not up to Jews to find ways "to quell these feelings of hate" directed at them by some non-Jews. Rather, it is up to anti-Semites to abandon feelings of hatred directed towards Jews, based on envy of Jewish industry and accomplishments.

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