Israel

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neverfail
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Re: Israel

Post by neverfail » Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:47 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:18 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:04 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:47 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:17 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:01 am
The price to be paid for peace is not a Palestinian state, it is giving Israel sovereignty over the whole of Palestina. Hard on Palestinians? Sure, but not harder than it was for Germans to leave East Prussia. I have no doubt that Palestinians would easily find a new home in any of the neighbouring Arab countries. But they would have to integrate with the peoples of those countries, rather than building refugee camps.
if other Arab states were even remotely appealing places to settle into, don't you think that Palestinians would have done so en masse already?
So-called Palestinians exist as convenient fodder for folks eager "to vanish" Israel. The UAE and Saudi Arabia, e.g., would certainly be appealing places for non-militant Arabs in Palestine to relocate, if they would have them.
The reactionary monarchies of the Arabian peninsula? I think not Jim.
True enough. Muslim entities tend to not aid their co-religionists elsewhere with settlement opportunities, rather preferring to encourage (and fund) them to attack Israel.
Palestinian Arabs go to the Gulf states as guest workers anyway - but that is all that they are allowed to be. They still have to return to Gaza or the West Bank at the end of their work contracts. The Palestinian Arabs are nor wanted in those places because they are so far ahead in their thinking they are bound to be a threat to the reactionary monarchies if permitted to settle there in numbers.

In particular, the repressive/oppressive Wahhabi theocratic regime of Saudi Arabia would not be acceptable to them.

Were I one of them I would want a secular state of our own. More so because I would have no ties with the Arabian peninsula but would retain ancestral memories of how my people lost homes, farmland and other property when pushed out by Jewish immigrants at the time that the state of Israel came into being. As a matter of justice I would at the very least want that confiscated property back.

Jim the Moron
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:51 pm

Re: Israel

Post by Jim the Moron » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:21 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:47 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:18 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:04 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:47 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:17 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:01 am
The price to be paid for peace is not a Palestinian state, it is giving Israel sovereignty over the whole of Palestina. Hard on Palestinians? Sure, but not harder than it was for Germans to leave East Prussia. I have no doubt that Palestinians would easily find a new home in any of the neighbouring Arab countries. But they would have to integrate with the peoples of those countries, rather than building refugee camps.
if other Arab states were even remotely appealing places to settle into, don't you think that Palestinians would have done so en masse already?
So-called Palestinians exist as convenient fodder for folks eager "to vanish" Israel. The UAE and Saudi Arabia, e.g., would certainly be appealing places for non-militant Arabs in Palestine to relocate, if they would have them.
The reactionary monarchies of the Arabian peninsula? I think not Jim.
True enough. Muslim entities tend to not aid their co-religionists elsewhere with settlement opportunities, rather preferring to encourage (and fund) them to attack Israel.
Palestinian Arabs go to the Gulf states as guest workers anyway - but that is all that they are allowed to be. They still have to return to Gaza or the West Bank at the end of their work contracts. The Palestinian Arabs are nor wanted in those places because they are so far ahead in their thinking they are bound to be a threat to the reactionary monarchies if permitted to settle there in numbers.

In particular, the repressive/oppressive Wahhabi theocratic regime of Saudi Arabia would not be acceptable to them.

Were I one of them I would want a secular state of our own. More so because I would have no ties with the Arabian peninsula but would retain ancestral memories of how my people lost homes, farmland and other property when pushed out by Jewish immigrants at the time that the state of Israel came into being. As a matter of justice I would at the very least want that confiscated property back.
It's not only the Israelis that resent the barbaric behavior of Palestinian Arabs. Even Muslim states in the region are distrustful of Hamas and the like. Who can blame them?

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Sertorio
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Re: Israel

Post by Sertorio » Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:46 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:47 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:18 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:04 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:47 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:17 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:01 am
The price to be paid for peace is not a Palestinian state, it is giving Israel sovereignty over the whole of Palestina. Hard on Palestinians? Sure, but not harder than it was for Germans to leave East Prussia. I have no doubt that Palestinians would easily find a new home in any of the neighbouring Arab countries. But they would have to integrate with the peoples of those countries, rather than building refugee camps.
if other Arab states were even remotely appealing places to settle into, don't you think that Palestinians would have done so en masse already?
So-called Palestinians exist as convenient fodder for folks eager "to vanish" Israel. The UAE and Saudi Arabia, e.g., would certainly be appealing places for non-militant Arabs in Palestine to relocate, if they would have them.
The reactionary monarchies of the Arabian peninsula? I think not Jim.
True enough. Muslim entities tend to not aid their co-religionists elsewhere with settlement opportunities, rather preferring to encourage (and fund) them to attack Israel.
Palestinian Arabs go to the Gulf states as guest workers anyway - but that is all that they are allowed to be. They still have to return to Gaza or the West Bank at the end of their work contracts. The Palestinian Arabs are nor wanted in those places because they are so far ahead in their thinking they are bound to be a threat to the reactionary monarchies if permitted to settle there in numbers.

In particular, the repressive/oppressive Wahhabi theocratic regime of Saudi Arabia would not be acceptable to them.

Were I one of them I would want a secular state of our own. More so because I would have no ties with the Arabian peninsula but would retain ancestral memories of how my people lost homes, farmland and other property when pushed out by Jewish immigrants at the time that the state of Israel came into being. As a matter of justice I would at the very least want that confiscated property back.
I think Palestinians might feel at home in Syria, a secular state, once peace has been restored. Trouble is the West doesn't want peace in Syria, it wants to overthrow Bashar al-Assad, which shows how stupid we really are.

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dagbay
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Re: Israel

Post by dagbay » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:16 pm

As it stands after generations of peace initiatives that were rejected flatly by Arabs it is time to consider other solutions. There I agree with Sertorio that one such solution involves an incentivesed population transfer of Arabs who are not israeli citizens to neighbor Arab countries such as Jordan. Other solutions such as the tribal emirates with Israeli annexation of the non populated areas (B,C) or Jordanian citizenship award in exchange for local autonomy are possible. We can remain hopefull that the Arabs will choose to improve their lives over continued depravity.
Unfortunately, none of these approaches is likely to be realized in the forseeable future.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

neverfail
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Location: Singapore

Re: Jordan

Post by neverfail » Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:12 am

dagbay wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:16 pm
As it stands after generations of peace initiatives that were rejected flatly by Arabs....

Why was that? Is it possible that the terms and conditions of those "initiatives" were unacceptable to the Arabs?

it is time to consider other solutions. There I agree with Sertorio that one such solution involves an incentivesed population transfer of Arabs who are not Israeli citizens to neighbor Arab countries such as Jordan.
( :( sigh!) I once knew a Palestinian immigrant who sometimes did repairs for me. He enjoyed an occasional chat while he was working. So I asked him about Jordan where he had relatives. It seems that the population of Jordan is predominantly comprised of Palestinians - so it might seem on the surface that it would be a logical place for Gaza and West Bank Palestinians to migrate to and settle. If only the World were that simple!

The problem is that while the majority population are Palestinian the rulers there are not. He described the ruling class of Jordan as "Arabs from the desert" - quite a different bunch.

( Remember Laurence of Arabia? He led King Saud's Arab Legion through this region in pursuit of the Ottoman Turkish army in 1917-18. The British government subsequently rewarded King Saud for that wartime alliance by making a couple of his sons kings of Jordan and Iraq as Hashemite monarchies.)

The picture my acquaintance painted was one where the farmers, town artisans and shopkeepers, the manufacturers etc. are all Palestinian but where the Royal family, the civil administrators, police and military are ex-Bedouin. Predictably, it is the former who are taxed and the latter who are paid the benefits. It did not seem to be any kind of a welcoming land of opportunity where a Palestinian normally had any real chance for upward socio-economic mobility.

Don't you think that there would have been a mass migration of Gaza and WB Palestinians into Jordan by now had this country been a welcoming land of opportunity for them?

Same rule applies to migration to other Arab countries.

Jim the Moron
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Re: Jordan

Post by Jim the Moron » Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:35 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:12 am
dagbay wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:16 pm
As it stands after generations of peace initiatives that were rejected flatly by Arabs....

Why was that? Is it possible that the terms and conditions of those "initiatives" were unacceptable to the Arabs?

it is time to consider other solutions. There I agree with Sertorio that one such solution involves an incentivesed population transfer of Arabs who are not Israeli citizens to neighbor Arab countries such as Jordan.
( :( sigh!) I once knew a Palestinian immigrant who sometimes did repairs for me. He enjoyed an occasional chat while he was working. So I asked him about Jordan where he had relatives. It seems that the population of Jordan is predominantly comprised of Palestinians - so it might seem on the surface that it would be a logical place for Gaza and West Bank Palestinians to migrate to and settle. If only the World were that simple!

The problem is that while the majority population are Palestinian the rulers there are not. He described the ruling class of Jordan as "Arabs from the desert" - quite a different bunch.

( Remember Laurence of Arabia? He led King Saud's Arab Legion through this region in pursuit of the Ottoman Turkish army in 1917-18. The British government subsequently rewarded King Saud for that wartime alliance by making a couple of his sons kings of Jordan and Iraq as Hashemite monarchies.)

The picture my acquaintance painted was one where the farmers, town artisans and shopkeepers, the manufacturers etc. are all Palestinian but where the Royal family, the civil administrators, police and military are ex-Bedouin. Predictably, it is the former who are taxed and the latter who are paid the benefits. It did not seem to be any kind of a welcoming land of opportunity where a Palestinian normally had any real chance for upward socio-economic mobility.

Don't you think that there would have been a mass migration of Gaza and WB Palestinians into Jordan by now had this country been a welcoming land of opportunity for them?

Same rule applies to migration to other Arab countries.
Therein lies the rub. No one wants the barbaric Arabs who hide behind peaceful Palestinians. Who can blame them?

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dagbay
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Re: Jordan

Post by dagbay » Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:20 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:35 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:12 am
dagbay wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:16 pm
As it stands after generations of peace initiatives that were rejected flatly by Arabs....

Why was that? Is it possible that the terms and conditions of those "initiatives" were unacceptable to the Arabs?

it is time to consider other solutions. There I agree with Sertorio that one such solution involves an incentivesed population transfer of Arabs who are not Israeli citizens to neighbor Arab countries such as Jordan.
( :( sigh!) I once knew a Palestinian immigrant who sometimes did repairs for me. He enjoyed an occasional chat while he was working. So I asked him about Jordan where he had relatives. It seems that the population of Jordan is predominantly comprised of Palestinians - so it might seem on the surface that it would be a logical place for Gaza and West Bank Palestinians to migrate to and settle. If only the World were that simple!

The problem is that while the majority population are Palestinian the rulers there are not. He described the ruling class of Jordan as "Arabs from the desert" - quite a different bunch.

( Remember Laurence of Arabia? He led King Saud's Arab Legion through this region in pursuit of the Ottoman Turkish army in 1917-18. The British government subsequently rewarded King Saud for that wartime alliance by making a couple of his sons kings of Jordan and Iraq as Hashemite monarchies.)

The picture my acquaintance painted was one where the farmers, town artisans and shopkeepers, the manufacturers etc. are all Palestinian but where the Royal family, the civil administrators, police and military are ex-Bedouin. Predictably, it is the former who are taxed and the latter who are paid the benefits. It did not seem to be any kind of a welcoming land of opportunity where a Palestinian normally had any real chance for upward socio-economic mobility.

Don't you think that there would have been a mass migration of Gaza and WB Palestinians into Jordan by now had this country been a welcoming land of opportunity for them?

Same rule applies to migration to other Arab countries.
Therein lies the rub. No one wants the barbaric Arabs who hide behind peaceful Palestinians. Who can blame them?
The hope (itself hopefully not eternal) is that king Abdullah of Jordan will be forced to make way for a more representative rule. His wife has effectively relocated to London last December. There has been calls from the weak opposition leader Mudar Zahran for his replacement. Zahran calla for that precise solution of absorbing th Arabs from Israel into Jordan. He is bound to face stiff opposition from the Beduins who are in control. Jordan is economically unstable and requires U, Saudi and Israeli security, energy and fresh water support to hold on.

Ps.on second thought there is a strong Muslim migration pattern from Israel and Gaza Hamastan to the welcoming arms of Euroba (formally known as Eurpe) and to South America. The exodus has been on for almost 2 decades at about 30k per year out of Israel Z (mostly of the younger generation). The migration from Gaza varies as Eygept and Hamas play with the flow of people over the boarder between the two.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

neverfail
Posts: 4329
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Location: Singapore

Re: Jordan

Post by neverfail » Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:51 am

dagbay wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:20 am

The hope (itself hopefully not eternal) is that king Abdullah of Jordan will be forced to make way for a more representative rule. His wife has effectively relocated to London last December. There has been calls from the weak opposition leader Mudar Zahran for his replacement. Zahran calla for that precise solution of absorbing th Arabs from Israel into Jordan. He is bound to face stiff opposition from the Beduins who are in control. Jordan is economically unstable and requires U, Saudi and Israeli security, energy and fresh water support to hold on.
Thanks for confirming my old Palestinian former associate's description of Jordan, Dagbay.

In other words; Jordan is patently non-viable as a land for Palestinian Arabs to move to for resettlement. Not just because of its skewed internal power structure but because of its hopelessly inadequate natural resource base - too little fresh water among other resource banes.

It would be very convenient for the Israelis if it were such a desirable destination for Palestinian resettlement. But why should the Middle East have to reshape itself in response to the demands of that pushy crowd :lol: - heirs to an exclusive, tribally focused definition of their relationship to God Almighty otherwise known as Jusism? :)

Jim the Moron
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Re: Israel

Post by Jim the Moron » Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:42 am

dagbay describes with authority the exodus ("for almost 2 decades") of Muslims from Israel and Gaza - to Europe and South America. Unfortunate for the recipients, but less of a burden for civilized folks (mainly Israelis) wishing to live in peace in the Levant.

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dagbay
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Re: Jordan

Post by dagbay » Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:24 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:51 am
dagbay wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:20 am

The hope (itself hopefully not eternal) is that king Abdullah of Jordan will be forced to make way for a more representative rule. His wife has effectively relocated to London last December. There has been calls from the weak opposition leader Mudar Zahran for his replacement. Zahran calla for that precise solution of absorbing th Arabs from Israel into Jordan. He is bound to face stiff opposition from the Beduins who are in control. Jordan is economically unstable and requires U, Saudi and Israeli security, energy and fresh water support to hold on.
Thanks for confirming my old Palestinian former associate's description of Jordan, Dagbay.

In other words; Jordan is patently non-viable as a land for Palestinian Arabs to move to for resettlement. Not just because of its skewed internal power structure but because of its hopelessly inadequate natural resource base - too little fresh water among other resource banes.

It would be very convenient for the Israelis if it were such a desirable destination for Palestinian resettlement. But why should the Middle East have to reshape itself in response to the demands of that pushy crowd :lol: - heirs to an exclusive, tribally focused definition of their relationship to God Almighty otherwise known as Jusism? :)
Indeed neverfail, Jordan is not viable as a destination for Arab repatriation as it stands. However there is a faction in Jordan supported by a large majority of Arabs who are considering replacing the king of Jordan. Jordan has no water and is land locked except for the southern town of Aqaba having a port.
But nothing should stop the Arabs of Jordan from desalinating water and with some industrious spirit borrowed from its neighbor it can be sustainable.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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