Israel

Discussion of current events
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Sertorio
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Re: Israel

Post by Sertorio » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:49 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:34 pm
I love Israel.
I am not so enthralled by some Israelis, such as the ultra-orthodox Jews, who should be shipped out to some desert island in the Pacific Ocean...

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cassowary
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Re: Israel

Post by cassowary » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:47 am

dagbay wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 10:26 pm
The Arabs meanwhile perfected the grievance culture and exploited all the willing and naive to provide for them.
That would be the left. As usual, the left got things wrong.
The Imp :D

Mr. Perfect
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Re: Israel

Post by Mr. Perfect » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:24 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:49 am
Mr. Perfect wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:34 pm
I love Israel.
I am not so enthralled by some Israelis, such as the ultra-orthodox Jews, who should be shipped out to some desert island in the Pacific Ocean...
Send them to Israel, everyone wins.

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dagbay
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Re: Israel

Post by dagbay » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:31 am

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:49 am
Mr. Perfect wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:34 pm
I love Israel.
I am not so enthralled by some Israelis, such as the ultra-orthodox Jews, who should be shipped out to some desert island in the Pacific Ocean...
Here Sertorio we differ. As far a orthodox Israelis are concerned - their social interactions and beliefs are a matter for Israelis to deal with and not for the denizens of Portugal to opine about. In fact deal with it Israelis do. Their ways are changing under slow but persistent pressure of the Netanyahu leadership. Their labor participation both men and women is steadily increasing and their integration into civil society is increasing in lockstep.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

Jim the Moron
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Re: Israel

Post by Jim the Moron » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:39 am

"The much-anticipated U.S. peace plan"
https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Moving-th ... ost-560600

"The chance of a deal being reached seems far fetched."
Yep. The late Charles Krauthammer said it best. It was words to the effect (wish I had the exact quote) that Israel was not willing to entrust its future to the attitudes and opinions of other nations. "The U.S. peace plan?" With the American record of foreign policy blundering? Don't hold your breath.

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cassowary
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Re: Israel

Post by cassowary » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:54 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:39 am
"The much-anticipated U.S. peace plan"
https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Moving-th ... ost-560600

"The chance of a deal being reached seems far fetched."
Yep. The late Charles Krauthammer said it best. It was words to the effect (wish I had the exact quote) that Israel was not willing to entrust its future to the attitudes and opinions of other nations. "The U.S. peace plan?" With the American record of foreign policy blundering? Don't hold your breath.
It seems like Trimp is trying a different approach. His peace plan is worse for the Palestinians than the one proposed by Ehud Barak.

Trump is punishing the Palestinians for their stubbornness rather than reward them like what previous Presidents did. Trump needs suport from other Arab leaders. If they make welcoming noises about the plan it will be a signal to the Palestinians that time is running out. The message Trump wants to give them is that the longer they delay the worse deal they will get.
The Imp :D

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dagbay
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Re: Israel

Post by dagbay » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:33 pm

cassowary wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:54 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:39 am
"The much-anticipated U.S. peace plan"
https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Moving-th ... ost-560600

"The chance of a deal being reached seems far fetched."
Yep. The late Charles Krauthammer said it best. It was words to the effect (wish I had the exact quote) that Israel was not willing to entrust its future to the attitudes and opinions of other nations. "The U.S. peace plan?" With the American record of foreign policy blundering? Don't hold your breath.
It seems like Trimp is trying a different approach. His peace plan is worse for the Palestinians than the one proposed by Ehud Barak.

Trump is punishing the Palestinians for their stubbornness rather than reward them like what previous Presidents did. Trump needs suport from other Arab leaders. If they make welcoming noises about the plan it will be a signal to the Palestinians that time is running out. The message Trump wants to give them is that the longer they delay the worse deal they will get.
It is a break from the usual appeasement approach but I strongly doubt that it will by itself change the age old habits. Trump may need to cracked the whip so to speak several times before the message is received and internalized. A generation of grievance professionals needs to reeducated.

I do think that limiting the hopes of the Palestinians as far as weakening israel by us / intrnational pressure is probably a change for the better.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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cassowary
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Re: Israel

Post by cassowary » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:15 pm

dagbay wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:33 pm
cassowary wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:54 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:39 am
"The much-anticipated U.S. peace plan"
https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Moving-th ... ost-560600

"The chance of a deal being reached seems far fetched."
Yep. The late Charles Krauthammer said it best. It was words to the effect (wish I had the exact quote) that Israel was not willing to entrust its future to the attitudes and opinions of other nations. "The U.S. peace plan?" With the American record of foreign policy blundering? Don't hold your breath.
It seems like Trimp is trying a different approach. His peace plan is worse for the Palestinians than the one proposed by Ehud Barak.

Trump is punishing the Palestinians for their stubbornness rather than reward them like what previous Presidents did. Trump needs suport from other Arab leaders. If they make welcoming noises about the plan it will be a signal to the Palestinians that time is running out. The message Trump wants to give them is that the longer they delay the worse deal they will get.
It is a break from the usual appeasement approach but I strongly doubt that it will by itself change the age old habits. Trump may need to cracked the whip so to speak several times before the message is received and internalized. A generation of grievance professionals needs to reeducated.

I do think that limiting the hopes of the Palestinians as far as weakening israel by us / intrnational pressure is probably a change for the better.
This time around the Sunni Arabs are afraid of Iran. So it is in their interests for the Palestinians to bury the hatchet. They should reduce their aid to the Palestinians. If the Palestinians accept a peace deal with Israel, Saudi Arabia, and other Sunni powers can more openly ally themselves with Israel against Iran.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: Israel

Post by neverfail » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:39 pm

cassowary wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:15 pm

This time around the Sunni Arabs are afraid of Iran. So it is in their interests for the Palestinians to bury the hatchet. They should reduce their aid to the Palestinians.
Oh, what a golden opportunity for Iran to move in with increased aid of its own to buy the allegiance of the palestinians.
Very likely cassowary you will find that the Saudis do not provide that aid out of any fancy sense of Arab solidarity but because they know that if they did not give their Shia enemies would move in and fill the vacuum at cost to them.

If President darn old Trump were not such a dumb arse fool in matters of foreign policy he would have realised that past administrations also provided US aid to the Palestinians (despite their verbal "lack of respect") for that very reason. His precipitous decision to terminate that aid (under the influence of his Jewish son-in-law no doubt?) must have made the temptation for the Palestinians to take their business elsewhere more appealing.
cassowary wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:15 pm
If the Palestinians accept a peace deal with Israel, Saudi Arabia, and other Sunni powers can more openly ally themselves with Israel against Iran.
Agreed - but what sort of peace deal? Peace treaties are not of one standard make and model - each has to be individually hand crafted. The devil in any peace deal lies in the terms and conditions. Were the Palestinians to agree to one under duress I am sure the Israeli negotiators would not hesitate to screw them over right royally.

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cassowary
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Re: Israel

Post by cassowary » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:37 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:39 pm


Oh, what a golden opportunity for Iran to move in with increased aid of its own to buy the allegiance of the palestinians.
Very likely cassowary you will find that the Saudis do not provide that aid out of any fancy sense of Arab solidarity but because they know that if they did not give their Shia enemies would move in and fill the vacuum at cost to them.

The Palestinians (at least the HAMAS people) are already getting aid from Iran.

Palestinians are Sunnis while Iran is Shiite. They don't make natural allies. So It won't be easy for Iran to fill the vacuum if Saudi Arabia and others cut down aid. The trust is just not there. Any friendship is temporary. Iran would rather give their limited funds to Hizbollah or the Assad regime.
The Imp :D

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