Israel

Discussion of current events
Ellen
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Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:02 pm

Re: Israel

Post by Ellen » Tue May 18, 2021 8:07 am

Thanks to all the participants above for the interesting discussion.

Whether it is possible to produce a civilized and tolerant Arab society is a big topic of conversation among Arab emigres who now work in Think Tanks in the West. And there are a few honest and brave people in these think tanks who are willing to go against the powerful forces of intimidation and shame that are the basis of Arab society, and admit that Arab/Islamic culture is a big part of the problem. And Arabs intellectuals have largely been bankrupt in cheering on the most violent and regressive political leaders for the last 70 years.

That is why I think Mansour Abbas is an interesting and potentially promising personality. He is a religious Muslim and heads an explicitly religious party. He doesn't have to worry about being called inauthentic and too secular and a nonserious Muslim. The other Arab party in the Knesset is run by Communists and secularists who don't project an aura of sincerity or real concern for the people they are supposed to be representing. Abbas does, and he is also soft spoken, never rants, never goes on about the Nakba and all of those old subjects that ruin every dialogue. Israel is not going to apologize for its victory in the 1948 war, nor consider any right of return. It is simply a waste of time to even raise the subject. Israeli governments, including of the right, are willing to consider investing more resources in the Arab sector, assuming that the Arabs view themselves as loyal to the state and behave that way. The question is, are they and will they?

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Sertorio
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Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Israel

Post by Sertorio » Tue May 18, 2021 8:18 am

Ellen wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 8:07 am
Thanks to all the participants above for the interesting discussion.

Whether it is possible to produce a civilized and tolerant Arab society is a big topic of conversation among Arab emigres who now work in Think Tanks in the West. And there are a few honest and brave people in these think tanks who are willing to go against the powerful forces of intimidation and shame that are the basis of Arab society, and admit that Arab/Islamic culture is a big part of the problem. And Arabs intellectuals have largely been bankrupt in cheering on the most violent and regressive political leaders for the last 70 years.

That is why I think Mansour Abbas is an interesting and potentially promising personality. He is a religious Muslim and heads an explicitly religious party. He doesn't have to worry about being called inauthentic and too secular and a nonserious Muslim. The other Arab party in the Knesset is run by Communists and secularists who don't project an aura of sincerity or real concern for the people they are supposed to be representing. Abbas does, and he is also soft spoken, never rants, never goes on about the Nakba and all of those old subjects that ruin every dialogue. Israel is not going to apologize for its victory in the 1948 war, nor consider any right of return. It is simply a waste of time to even raise the subject. Israeli governments, including of the right, are willing to consider investing more resources in the Arab sector, assuming that the Arabs view themselves as loyal to the state and behave that way. The question is, are they and will they?
The more Israelis there are who think like you, and the more Arabs there will be who will be willing to consider Israel their fatherland. In my experience tolerance - not weakness - fosters tolerance.

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dagbay
Posts: 508
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Re: Israel

Post by dagbay » Tue May 18, 2021 7:36 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 8:18 am
Ellen wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 8:07 am
Thanks to all the participants above for the interesting discussion.

Whether it is possible to produce a civilized and tolerant Arab society is a big topic of conversation among Arab emigres who now work in Think Tanks in the West. And there are a few honest and brave people in these think tanks who are willing to go against the powerful forces of intimidation and shame that are the basis of Arab society, and admit that Arab/Islamic culture is a big part of the problem. And Arabs intellectuals have largely been bankrupt in cheering on the most violent and regressive political leaders for the last 70 years.

That is why I think Mansour Abbas is an interesting and potentially promising personality. He is a religious Muslim and heads an explicitly religious party. He doesn't have to worry about being called inauthentic and too secular and a nonserious Muslim. The other Arab party in the Knesset is run by Communists and secularists who don't project an aura of sincerity or real concern for the people they are supposed to be representing. Abbas does, and he is also soft spoken, never rants, never goes on about the Nakba and all of those old subjects that ruin every dialogue. Israel is not going to apologize for its victory in the 1948 war, nor consider any right of return. It is simply a waste of time to even raise the subject. Israeli governments, including of the right, are willing to consider investing more resources in the Arab sector, assuming that the Arabs view themselves as loyal to the state and behave that way. The question is, are they and will they?
The more Israelis there are who think like you, and the more Arabs there will be who will be willing to consider Israel their fatherland. In my experience tolerance - not weakness - fosters tolerance.
Maybe, but whatever you believe in will have to stand up to reality. And currently the reality is that Israelis have just experienced Israeli Arab aggression on a historic scale. Not since
the pogroms in Europe pre WWII or in the Arab countries did we see synagogues torched and Bible scrolls on fire. Arab Jewish relationships just suffered a massive setback. Mansur may say the right things but his radical tribesmen just made him suspect and not trustworthy. It will be quite some time before Jews will be willing to listen to what he says.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

neverfail
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Location: Singapore

Re: Israel

Post by neverfail » Thu May 20, 2021 2:28 am

dagbay wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 7:36 pm

Maybe, but whatever you believe in will have to stand up to reality. And currently the reality is that Israelis have just experienced Israeli Arab aggression on a historic scale. Not since
the pogroms in Europe pre WWII or in the Arab countries did we see synagogues torched and Bible scrolls on fire. Arab Jewish relationships just suffered a massive setback. Mansur may say the right things but his radical tribesmen just made him suspect and not trustworthy. It will be quite some time before Jews will be willing to listen to what he says.
Very likely that is exactly what the Arab militants set out to acheive and the Israelis have fallen for the ruse.

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Sertorio
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Re: Israel

Post by Sertorio » Thu May 20, 2021 2:44 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:28 am
dagbay wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 7:36 pm

Maybe, but whatever you believe in will have to stand up to reality. And currently the reality is that Israelis have just experienced Israeli Arab aggression on a historic scale. Not since
the pogroms in Europe pre WWII or in the Arab countries did we see synagogues torched and Bible scrolls on fire. Arab Jewish relationships just suffered a massive setback. Mansur may say the right things but his radical tribesmen just made him suspect and not trustworthy. It will be quite some time before Jews will be willing to listen to what he says.
Very likely that is exactly what the Arab militants set out to acheive and the Israelis have fallen for the ruse.
I believe the only chance for peace in Israel is for Israelis to take the risk of dealing in good faith first of all with Israeli Arabs and then, through them, with the moderate West Bank Arabs. Once the moderate West Bank Arabs accept becoming equal rights citizens of Israel, and accept that radicals be expelled from Israel, peace will be within reach. It is a risk, but the alternative is war until Israel is abandoned by every country in the world. But I believe that eventually the moderate Arabs will realize that being Muslim is not better than being something else, and all they may be entitled to have is freedom to practice their religion. If radicals are systematically expelled, this is quite feasible.

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dagbay
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Re: Israel

Post by dagbay » Thu May 20, 2021 5:06 am

Here is a good example of what you are up against....https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/20 ... arabs.html

Arab: I can’t get all of the people out. I need at least two hours to get them out.
IDF: Listen, we are going to bomb the building.
Arab: You want to bomb? Bomb whatever you want.
IDF: No, brother, we need to do everything we can so you don’t die.
Arab: We want to die.
IDF: But you have a responsibility for children’s lives.
Arab: If the children need to die then they’ll die.
IDF: God forbid! God forbid! Why do you want to die?
Arab: this is how we reveal your cruelty.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

Jim the Moron
Posts: 2288
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:51 pm

Re: Israel

Post by Jim the Moron » Thu May 20, 2021 9:43 am

dagbay wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 5:06 am
Here is a good example of what you are up against....https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/20 ... arabs.html

Arab: I can’t get all of the people out. I need at least two hours to get them out.
IDF: Listen, we are going to bomb the building.
Arab: You want to bomb? Bomb whatever you want.
IDF: No, brother, we need to do everything we can so you don’t die.
Arab: We want to die.
IDF: But you have a responsibility for children’s lives.
Arab: If the children need to die then they’ll die.
IDF: God forbid! God forbid! Why do you want to die?
Arab: this is how we reveal your cruelty.

Islam - the culture of death . . .

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Milo
Posts: 3272
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:14 pm

Re: Israel

Post by Milo » Thu May 20, 2021 12:10 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:44 am
neverfail wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:28 am
dagbay wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 7:36 pm

Maybe, but whatever you believe in will have to stand up to reality. And currently the reality is that Israelis have just experienced Israeli Arab aggression on a historic scale. Not since
the pogroms in Europe pre WWII or in the Arab countries did we see synagogues torched and Bible scrolls on fire. Arab Jewish relationships just suffered a massive setback. Mansur may say the right things but his radical tribesmen just made him suspect and not trustworthy. It will be quite some time before Jews will be willing to listen to what he says.
Very likely that is exactly what the Arab militants set out to acheive and the Israelis have fallen for the ruse.
I believe the only chance for peace in Israel is for Israelis to take the risk of dealing in good faith first of all with Israeli Arabs and then, through them, with the moderate West Bank Arabs. Once the moderate West Bank Arabs accept becoming equal rights citizens of Israel, and accept that radicals be expelled from Israel, peace will be within reach. It is a risk, but the alternative is war until Israel is abandoned by every country in the world. But I believe that eventually the moderate Arabs will realize that being Muslim is not better than being something else, and all they may be entitled to have is freedom to practice their religion. If radicals are systematically expelled, this is quite feasible.
A radical Muslim wants to covert or murder all non-Muslims.

A moderate Muslim wants radical Muslims to covert or murder all non-Muslims.

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Sertorio
Posts: 5122
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Israel

Post by Sertorio » Thu May 20, 2021 12:22 pm

Milo wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 12:10 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:44 am
neverfail wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:28 am
dagbay wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 7:36 pm

Maybe, but whatever you believe in will have to stand up to reality. And currently the reality is that Israelis have just experienced Israeli Arab aggression on a historic scale. Not since
the pogroms in Europe pre WWII or in the Arab countries did we see synagogues torched and Bible scrolls on fire. Arab Jewish relationships just suffered a massive setback. Mansur may say the right things but his radical tribesmen just made him suspect and not trustworthy. It will be quite some time before Jews will be willing to listen to what he says.
Very likely that is exactly what the Arab militants set out to acheive and the Israelis have fallen for the ruse.
I believe the only chance for peace in Israel is for Israelis to take the risk of dealing in good faith first of all with Israeli Arabs and then, through them, with the moderate West Bank Arabs. Once the moderate West Bank Arabs accept becoming equal rights citizens of Israel, and accept that radicals be expelled from Israel, peace will be within reach. It is a risk, but the alternative is war until Israel is abandoned by every country in the world. But I believe that eventually the moderate Arabs will realize that being Muslim is not better than being something else, and all they may be entitled to have is freedom to practice their religion. If radicals are systematically expelled, this is quite feasible.
A radical Muslim wants to covert or murder all non-Muslims.

A moderate Muslim wants radical Muslims to covert or murder all non-Muslims.
If that's how Canada sees Muslims, no wonder Canada's diplomacy is in a shambles...But then, the only diplomacy Anglo countries recognize is the old gun-boat sort...

Jim the Moron
Posts: 2288
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:51 pm

Re: Israel

Post by Jim the Moron » Thu May 27, 2021 7:56 pm

"Israel's Iron Dome"
https://channelnewsasia.com/news/commen ... e-14897606

"Due to the protection offered by Iron Dome, Israelis may no longer feel an urgent need to solve the Palestinian issue."
Bullshit. It's up to the "Palestinians" to solve their own damn problems - chief among them being the terrorists they dispatch to maim and kill, and the thousands of rockets they lob into Israel whenever they please.

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