Israel

Discussion of current events
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Sertorio
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Re: Israel

Post by Sertorio » Sun May 16, 2021 11:58 am

dagbay wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 11:38 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 9:58 am
Doc wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 9:21 am
Ellen wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 7:11 am
Not true Sertorio. Nobody is defending Hamas in this war, including their usual defenders - Europeans and Arabs. Even their supporters like Iran and Hezbollah have bailed out. They are utterly friendless.

The Czech and Austrian governments are flying the Israeli flag today in support of the Israeli war effort. Back in the 1980's during the Lebanon war, both of these governments supported the Palestinians. In order to fly the Israeli flag, the Czech government took down the EU flag, apparently. Now that is symbolism for you.
The biggest concern for Israel is not what people think in foreign capitals but what Israeli Arabs think. Not sure how it started but it *seems* to me like Netanyahu made a mistake.
I tend to agree with you on this...
Quite to the contrary! The recent events will strengthen Netanyahu (even though many would like him to leave office). All of his opponents have been caught with their pants down (or completely nude) and everyone is pointing at them including some left wingers who are unable to ratiionalize the Arab (Israeli full equal rights citizenry) behavior.
No ! These scenes bring back for many Jews the riots of 1939. The massacre of the Jews of Hebron and Jerusalem. They show exactly what is an Arab neighbor and they demonstrate exactly how that unbelievably short transition from a friend to a murders foe happens.
In the first Arab intifada we saw the very same transition, almost like a switch was thrown. An Arab village who's people shared coffee and pita just a day before cane at their neighbors with rocks and knives.
So Sertorio, as I suggested before there will never be a country that will include more Arabs citizens as you push for. Maybe in France but not in Israel. What is truly sad is the few civilized Arabs that stood with law and order. They may not live long (Arabs do not take kindly to those of their own who go against the tribe) but they should be counted.
I am sure that more Israeli Arabs were on the side of law and order than sided with the rioters. Time for an act of faith in those Israeli Arabs. The rewards of such an act could be enormous.

Ellen
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:02 pm

Re: Israel

Post by Ellen » Sun May 16, 2021 4:44 pm

Most Israeli Arabs support the Israeli (meaning Zionist) state and absolutely do not support the rioters. The problem has always been, in Arab society generally, that the moderate people are intimidated by the radicals and militants who are very violent and will kill for their so-called beliefs. There are a lot of weapons in every Arab town and these can be used for good old-fashioned crime or for ideological rampages, as what we see now.

Netanyahu absolutely bears responsibility for not cracking down on Arab criminality, whose victims are mainly other Arabs. Now we see that Jews can suffer too if the criminals decide to respond to Hamas' incitement. Netanyahu needs to be replaced for that reason and many others. But, one good thing he did do is bring Mansour Abbas and his Islamist Party into the political picture. Abbas is a new breed of Arab politician. He wants to improve the lives of Israeli Arab citizens and integrate them into the life of the society more. He never talks about the Palestinian issue at all. This is a red line for most Israeli Jews. The minute he would talk about that, no one would trust him.

He is now talking about repairing the damage to synagogues as the result of Arab rioting and participating in exercises to strengthen the civic indentity of Israeli Arabs. This is very brave of him and could provide a completely different model for Palestinian leadership in the future vs the model of the PLO with Arafat/Abbas or Hamas with their jihadism. Israeli Jews and the younger generation of Israeli Arabs have more in common culturally than most outsiders think. Israel today is shaped more by its Sephardi (Mizrachi) population than its Ashkenazi one, as surprising as that might seem. The old secular Ashkenzi elites have really declined in their cultural influence, and for good reasons. They have little to say that anyone wants to listen to. They abandoned Judaism and Zionism years ago to fit into the secular Western mold, and now they have discovered that their audiences have abandoned them. 90% of Israeli Jews are Zionist and/or religious. Their imitation Western culture doesn't speak to the reality or needs of 21st Israel, which is really now a Jewish and Middle Eastern country, not a secular and Western one.

I wish Mansour Abbas well. He could go very far as a new type of Arab leader who has popular support among his own people and willing collaborators among the Jewish population. The PLO in the West Bank has produced nobody of this type or caliber in 50 years of political activity, even with all the money and political recognition from Western and Arab countries. They have produced a litany of failure in all areas. That is why they face an existential crisis.

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Doc
Posts: 5503
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:09 pm
Location: Cradle To Grave

Re: Israel

Post by Doc » Sun May 16, 2021 6:49 pm

dagbay wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 11:38 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 9:58 am
Doc wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 9:21 am
Ellen wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 7:11 am
Not true Sertorio. Nobody is defending Hamas in this war, including their usual defenders - Europeans and Arabs. Even their supporters like Iran and Hezbollah have bailed out. They are utterly friendless.

The Czech and Austrian governments are flying the Israeli flag today in support of the Israeli war effort. Back in the 1980's during the Lebanon war, both of these governments supported the Palestinians. In order to fly the Israeli flag, the Czech government took down the EU flag, apparently. Now that is symbolism for you.
The biggest concern for Israel is not what people think in foreign capitals but what Israeli Arabs think. Not sure how it started but it *seems* to me like Netanyahu made a mistake.
I tend to agree with you on this...
Quite to the contrary! The recent events will strengthen Netanyahu (even though many would like him to leave office). All of his opponents have been caught with their pants down (or completely nude) and everyone is pointing at them including some left wingers who are unable to ratiionalize the Arab (Israeli full equal rights citizenry) behavior.
No ! These scenes bring back for many Jews the riots of 1939. The massacre of the Jews of Hebron and Jerusalem. They show exactly what is an Arab neighbor and they demonstrate exactly how that unbelievably short transition from a friend to a murders foe happens.
In the first Arab intifada we saw the very same transition, almost like a switch was thrown. An Arab village who's people shared coffee and pita just a day before cane at their neighbors with rocks and knives.
So Sertorio, as I suggested before there will never be a country that will include more Arabs citizens as you push for. Maybe in France but not in Israel. What is truly sad is the few civilized Arabs that stood with law and order. They may not live long (Arabs do not take kindly to those of their own who go against the tribe) but they should be counted.
The first Arab intifada without any real leadership almost succeeded.


So

"We'll see."

“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Sertorio
Posts: 5122
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Re: Israel

Post by Sertorio » Mon May 17, 2021 3:16 am

Ellen wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 4:44 pm
Most Israeli Arabs support the Israeli (meaning Zionist) state and absolutely do not support the rioters. The problem has always been, in Arab society generally, that the moderate people are intimidated by the radicals and militants who are very violent and will kill for their so-called beliefs. There are a lot of weapons in every Arab town and these can be used for good old-fashioned crime or for ideological rampages, as what we see now.

Netanyahu absolutely bears responsibility for not cracking down on Arab criminality, whose victims are mainly other Arabs. Now we see that Jews can suffer too if the criminals decide to respond to Hamas' incitement. Netanyahu needs to be replaced for that reason and many others. But, one good thing he did do is bring Mansour Abbas and his Islamist Party into the political picture. Abbas is a new breed of Arab politician. He wants to improve the lives of Israeli Arab citizens and integrate them into the life of the society more. He never talks about the Palestinian issue at all. This is a red line for most Israeli Jews. The minute he would talk about that, no one would trust him.

He is now talking about repairing the damage to synagogues as the result of Arab rioting and participating in exercises to strengthen the civic indentity of Israeli Arabs. This is very brave of him and could provide a completely different model for Palestinian leadership in the future vs the model of the PLO with Arafat/Abbas or Hamas with their jihadism. Israeli Jews and the younger generation of Israeli Arabs have more in common culturally than most outsiders think. Israel today is shaped more by its Sephardi (Mizrachi) population than its Ashkenazi one, as surprising as that might seem. The old secular Ashkenzi elites have really declined in their cultural influence, and for good reasons. They have little to say that anyone wants to listen to. They abandoned Judaism and Zionism years ago to fit into the secular Western mold, and now they have discovered that their audiences have abandoned them. 90% of Israeli Jews are Zionist and/or religious. Their imitation Western culture doesn't speak to the reality or needs of 21st Israel, which is really now a Jewish and Middle Eastern country, not a secular and Western one.

I wish Mansour Abbas well. He could go very far as a new type of Arab leader who has popular support among his own people and willing collaborators among the Jewish population. The PLO in the West Bank has produced nobody of this type or caliber in 50 years of political activity, even with all the money and political recognition from Western and Arab countries. They have produced a litany of failure in all areas. That is why they face an existential crisis.
You say all the right things, but still refuse to draw the obvious conclusion:

Most West Bank Arabs are also moderate. If they were given a chance of becoming Israeli citizens, while the radical fringe was expelled to Jordan, chances are that those Arabs would truly become Israeli, although Muslim or Christian, and Israel could live in peace as another - but prosperous and developed - ME country. Does this require faith? Probably yes, but why wouldn't a generally religious people, like the Jews, be capable of an act of faith?...

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dagbay
Posts: 508
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Re: Israel

Post by dagbay » Mon May 17, 2021 4:09 am

Sertorio wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 3:16 am
Ellen wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 4:44 pm
Most Israeli Arabs support the Israeli (meaning Zionist) state and absolutely do not support the rioters. The problem has always been, in Arab society generally, that the moderate people are intimidated by the radicals and militants who are very violent and will kill for their so-called beliefs. There are a lot of weapons in every Arab town and these can be used for good old-fashioned crime or for ideological rampages, as what we see now.

Netanyahu absolutely bears responsibility for not cracking down on Arab criminality, whose victims are mainly other Arabs. Now we see that Jews can suffer too if the criminals decide to respond to Hamas' incitement. Netanyahu needs to be replaced for that reason and many others. But, one good thing he did do is bring Mansour Abbas and his Islamist Party into the political picture. Abbas is a new breed of Arab politician. He wants to improve the lives of Israeli Arab citizens and integrate them into the life of the society more. He never talks about the Palestinian issue at all. This is a red line for most Israeli Jews. The minute he would talk about that, no one would trust him.

He is now talking about repairing the damage to synagogues as the result of Arab rioting and participating in exercises to strengthen the civic indentity of Israeli Arabs. This is very brave of him and could provide a completely different model for Palestinian leadership in the future vs the model of the PLO with Arafat/Abbas or Hamas with their jihadism. Israeli Jews and the younger generation of Israeli Arabs have more in common culturally than most outsiders think. Israel today is shaped more by its Sephardi (Mizrachi) population than its Ashkenazi one, as surprising as that might seem. The old secular Ashkenzi elites have really declined in their cultural influence, and for good reasons. They have little to say that anyone wants to listen to. They abandoned Judaism and Zionism years ago to fit into the secular Western mold, and now they have discovered that their audiences have abandoned them. 90% of Israeli Jews are Zionist and/or religious. Their imitation Western culture doesn't speak to the reality or needs of 21st Israel, which is really now a Jewish and Middle Eastern country, not a secular and Western one.

I wish Mansour Abbas well. He could go very far as a new type of Arab leader who has popular support among his own people and willing collaborators among the Jewish population. The PLO in the West Bank has produced nobody of this type or caliber in 50 years of political activity, even with all the money and political recognition from Western and Arab countries. They have produced a litany of failure in all areas. That is why they face an existential crisis.
You say all the right things, but still refuse to draw the obvious conclusion:

Most West Bank Arabs are also moderate. If they were given a chance of becoming Israeli citizens, while the radical fringe was expelled to Jordan, chances are that those Arabs would truly become Israeli, although Muslim or Christian, and Israel could live in peace as another - but prosperous and developed - ME country. Does this require faith? Probably yes, but why wouldn't a generally religious people, like the Jews, be capable of an act of faith?...
Very simple Sertorio. An act of fait in a murderous mob that has been brainwashed from kindergarten age. to kill Jews is suicidal and Israelis post Oslo can not afford to do that as much as it may be tempting..
As for Ra'am Mansur Abbas: It might be a ray of hope but it can also be a dishonest Trojan horse. Only time will tell if his actions and those of his followers are true or a deception. I hope that they are true but he has a long long way to go until some people will be willing to entertain a leap of faith. Sadly as Ellen mentioned the militant Arabs might bring about his premature departure.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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Sertorio
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Re: Israel

Post by Sertorio » Mon May 17, 2021 4:33 am

dagbay wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 4:09 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 3:16 am
Ellen wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 4:44 pm
Most Israeli Arabs support the Israeli (meaning Zionist) state and absolutely do not support the rioters. The problem has always been, in Arab society generally, that the moderate people are intimidated by the radicals and militants who are very violent and will kill for their so-called beliefs. There are a lot of weapons in every Arab town and these can be used for good old-fashioned crime or for ideological rampages, as what we see now.

Netanyahu absolutely bears responsibility for not cracking down on Arab criminality, whose victims are mainly other Arabs. Now we see that Jews can suffer too if the criminals decide to respond to Hamas' incitement. Netanyahu needs to be replaced for that reason and many others. But, one good thing he did do is bring Mansour Abbas and his Islamist Party into the political picture. Abbas is a new breed of Arab politician. He wants to improve the lives of Israeli Arab citizens and integrate them into the life of the society more. He never talks about the Palestinian issue at all. This is a red line for most Israeli Jews. The minute he would talk about that, no one would trust him.

He is now talking about repairing the damage to synagogues as the result of Arab rioting and participating in exercises to strengthen the civic indentity of Israeli Arabs. This is very brave of him and could provide a completely different model for Palestinian leadership in the future vs the model of the PLO with Arafat/Abbas or Hamas with their jihadism. Israeli Jews and the younger generation of Israeli Arabs have more in common culturally than most outsiders think. Israel today is shaped more by its Sephardi (Mizrachi) population than its Ashkenazi one, as surprising as that might seem. The old secular Ashkenzi elites have really declined in their cultural influence, and for good reasons. They have little to say that anyone wants to listen to. They abandoned Judaism and Zionism years ago to fit into the secular Western mold, and now they have discovered that their audiences have abandoned them. 90% of Israeli Jews are Zionist and/or religious. Their imitation Western culture doesn't speak to the reality or needs of 21st Israel, which is really now a Jewish and Middle Eastern country, not a secular and Western one.

I wish Mansour Abbas well. He could go very far as a new type of Arab leader who has popular support among his own people and willing collaborators among the Jewish population. The PLO in the West Bank has produced nobody of this type or caliber in 50 years of political activity, even with all the money and political recognition from Western and Arab countries. They have produced a litany of failure in all areas. That is why they face an existential crisis.
You say all the right things, but still refuse to draw the obvious conclusion:

Most West Bank Arabs are also moderate. If they were given a chance of becoming Israeli citizens, while the radical fringe was expelled to Jordan, chances are that those Arabs would truly become Israeli, although Muslim or Christian, and Israel could live in peace as another - but prosperous and developed - ME country. Does this require faith? Probably yes, but why wouldn't a generally religious people, like the Jews, be capable of an act of faith?...
Very simple Sertorio. An act of fait in a murderous mob that has been brainwashed from kindergarten age. to kill Jews is suicidal and Israelis post Oslo can not afford to do that as much as it may be tempting..
As for Ra'am Mansur Abbas: It might be a ray of hope but it can also be a dishonest Trojan horse. Only time will tell if his actions and those of his followers are true or a deception. I hope that they are true but he has a long long way to go until some people will be willing to entertain a leap of faith. Sadly as Ellen mentioned the militant Arabs might bring about his premature departure.
The act of faith I am suggesting is not in a murderous mob, but in the majority of decent West Bank Arabs who just want to live in peace, earn a decent living and educate their children. Once separated from the radical murderous Arabs, the decent Arab majority would act decently. This is what I hope a majority of Israelis will dare to believe.

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dagbay
Posts: 508
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:27 pm

Re: Israel

Post by dagbay » Mon May 17, 2021 8:58 am

Sertorio wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 4:33 am
dagbay wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 4:09 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 3:16 am
Ellen wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 4:44 pm
Most Israeli Arabs support the Israeli (meaning Zionist) state and absolutely do not support the rioters. The problem has always been, in Arab society generally, that the moderate people are intimidated by the radicals and militants who are very violent and will kill for their so-called beliefs. There are a lot of weapons in every Arab town and these can be used for good old-fashioned crime or for ideological rampages, as what we see now.

Netanyahu absolutely bears responsibility for not cracking down on Arab criminality, whose victims are mainly other Arabs. Now we see that Jews can suffer too if the criminals decide to respond to Hamas' incitement. Netanyahu needs to be replaced for that reason and many others. But, one good thing he did do is bring Mansour Abbas and his Islamist Party into the political picture. Abbas is a new breed of Arab politician. He wants to improve the lives of Israeli Arab citizens and integrate them into the life of the society more. He never talks about the Palestinian issue at all. This is a red line for most Israeli Jews. The minute he would talk about that, no one would trust him.

He is now talking about repairing the damage to synagogues as the result of Arab rioting and participating in exercises to strengthen the civic indentity of Israeli Arabs. This is very brave of him and could provide a completely different model for Palestinian leadership in the future vs the model of the PLO with Arafat/Abbas or Hamas with their jihadism. Israeli Jews and the younger generation of Israeli Arabs have more in common culturally than most outsiders think. Israel today is shaped more by its Sephardi (Mizrachi) population than its Ashkenazi one, as surprising as that might seem. The old secular Ashkenzi elites have really declined in their cultural influence, and for good reasons. They have little to say that anyone wants to listen to. They abandoned Judaism and Zionism years ago to fit into the secular Western mold, and now they have discovered that their audiences have abandoned them. 90% of Israeli Jews are Zionist and/or religious. Their imitation Western culture doesn't speak to the reality or needs of 21st Israel, which is really now a Jewish and Middle Eastern country, not a secular and Western one.

I wish Mansour Abbas well. He could go very far as a new type of Arab leader who has popular support among his own people and willing collaborators among the Jewish population. The PLO in the West Bank has produced nobody of this type or caliber in 50 years of political activity, even with all the money and political recognition from Western and Arab countries. They have produced a litany of failure in all areas. That is why they face an existential crisis.
You say all the right things, but still refuse to draw the obvious conclusion:

Most West Bank Arabs are also moderate. If they were given a chance of becoming Israeli citizens, while the radical fringe was expelled to Jordan, chances are that those Arabs would truly become Israeli, although Muslim or Christian, and Israel could live in peace as another - but prosperous and developed - ME country. Does this require faith? Probably yes, but why wouldn't a generally religious people, like the Jews, be capable of an act of faith?...
Very simple Sertorio. An act of fait in a murderous mob that has been brainwashed from kindergarten age. to kill Jews is suicidal and Israelis post Oslo can not afford to do that as much as it may be tempting..
As for Ra'am Mansur Abbas: It might be a ray of hope but it can also be a dishonest Trojan horse. Only time will tell if his actions and those of his followers are true or a deception. I hope that they are true but he has a long long way to go until some people will be willing to entertain a leap of faith. Sadly as Ellen mentioned the militant Arabs might bring about his premature departure.
The act of faith I am suggesting is not in a murderous mob, but in the majority of decent West Bank Arabs who just want to live in peace, earn a decent living and educate their children. Once separated from the radical murderous Arabs, the decent Arab majority would act decently. This is what I hope a majority of Israelis will dare to believe.
Did you base the word majority on fact or fantasy? Are you more qualified to know what the people that you include in that term majority want than they do or their representatives say? You remind me many liberals who are certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that Radical Muslims will behave like peaceful herd of sheep if only....? They did not change a single bit for over a millennia. You will have to come up with a lot more convincing facts to begin to change minds. Surly the thousands of lives lost to the last two bouts of liberal shortsightedness would be in your way.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 5122
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Israel

Post by Sertorio » Mon May 17, 2021 9:22 am

dagbay wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 8:58 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 4:33 am
dagbay wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 4:09 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 3:16 am
Ellen wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 4:44 pm
Most Israeli Arabs support the Israeli (meaning Zionist) state and absolutely do not support the rioters. The problem has always been, in Arab society generally, that the moderate people are intimidated by the radicals and militants who are very violent and will kill for their so-called beliefs. There are a lot of weapons in every Arab town and these can be used for good old-fashioned crime or for ideological rampages, as what we see now.

Netanyahu absolutely bears responsibility for not cracking down on Arab criminality, whose victims are mainly other Arabs. Now we see that Jews can suffer too if the criminals decide to respond to Hamas' incitement. Netanyahu needs to be replaced for that reason and many others. But, one good thing he did do is bring Mansour Abbas and his Islamist Party into the political picture. Abbas is a new breed of Arab politician. He wants to improve the lives of Israeli Arab citizens and integrate them into the life of the society more. He never talks about the Palestinian issue at all. This is a red line for most Israeli Jews. The minute he would talk about that, no one would trust him.

He is now talking about repairing the damage to synagogues as the result of Arab rioting and participating in exercises to strengthen the civic indentity of Israeli Arabs. This is very brave of him and could provide a completely different model for Palestinian leadership in the future vs the model of the PLO with Arafat/Abbas or Hamas with their jihadism. Israeli Jews and the younger generation of Israeli Arabs have more in common culturally than most outsiders think. Israel today is shaped more by its Sephardi (Mizrachi) population than its Ashkenazi one, as surprising as that might seem. The old secular Ashkenzi elites have really declined in their cultural influence, and for good reasons. They have little to say that anyone wants to listen to. They abandoned Judaism and Zionism years ago to fit into the secular Western mold, and now they have discovered that their audiences have abandoned them. 90% of Israeli Jews are Zionist and/or religious. Their imitation Western culture doesn't speak to the reality or needs of 21st Israel, which is really now a Jewish and Middle Eastern country, not a secular and Western one.

I wish Mansour Abbas well. He could go very far as a new type of Arab leader who has popular support among his own people and willing collaborators among the Jewish population. The PLO in the West Bank has produced nobody of this type or caliber in 50 years of political activity, even with all the money and political recognition from Western and Arab countries. They have produced a litany of failure in all areas. That is why they face an existential crisis.
You say all the right things, but still refuse to draw the obvious conclusion:

Most West Bank Arabs are also moderate. If they were given a chance of becoming Israeli citizens, while the radical fringe was expelled to Jordan, chances are that those Arabs would truly become Israeli, although Muslim or Christian, and Israel could live in peace as another - but prosperous and developed - ME country. Does this require faith? Probably yes, but why wouldn't a generally religious people, like the Jews, be capable of an act of faith?...
Very simple Sertorio. An act of fait in a murderous mob that has been brainwashed from kindergarten age. to kill Jews is suicidal and Israelis post Oslo can not afford to do that as much as it may be tempting..
As for Ra'am Mansur Abbas: It might be a ray of hope but it can also be a dishonest Trojan horse. Only time will tell if his actions and those of his followers are true or a deception. I hope that they are true but he has a long long way to go until some people will be willing to entertain a leap of faith. Sadly as Ellen mentioned the militant Arabs might bring about his premature departure.
The act of faith I am suggesting is not in a murderous mob, but in the majority of decent West Bank Arabs who just want to live in peace, earn a decent living and educate their children. Once separated from the radical murderous Arabs, the decent Arab majority would act decently. This is what I hope a majority of Israelis will dare to believe.
Did you base the word majority on fact or fantasy? Are you more qualified to know what the people that you include in that term majority want than they do or their representatives say? You remind me many liberals who are certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that Radical Muslims will behave like peaceful herd of sheep if only....? They did not change a single bit for over a millennia. You will have to come up with a lot more convincing facts to begin to change minds. Surly the thousands of lives lost to the last two bouts of liberal shortsightedness would be in your way.
You are right, to a point. But how do you count the moderate and the extremist in a given population? What we know is that the extremist are very active, and the moderate very passive. That's why the extremist fringe often succeeds in giving the impression they represent the majority, when that is NEVER the case. From my own experience in Angola, during a revolutionary war, I know those willing to destroy and to murder are but a small fraction of those who only want peace. It is true they sometimes succeed in dragging the peaceful majority to join in the violence. But if you separate the peaceful majority from the extremist fringe - and that can be done - you can count on the majority to stay peaceful. Unless they are subject to such violence that they end up becoming violent themselves. But that can be prevented if the authorities are themselves a force for peace. My old man's advice is: trust the peaceful majority and they will respond with peace. But be sure you get rid of the extremist minority, by any means at your disposal. And don't punish the majority for the crimes of the minority.

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Doc
Posts: 5503
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:09 pm
Location: Cradle To Grave

Re: Israel

Post by Doc » Mon May 17, 2021 9:44 am

Sertorio wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 9:22 am
dagbay wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 8:58 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 4:33 am
dagbay wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 4:09 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 3:16 am
Ellen wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 4:44 pm
Most Israeli Arabs support the Israeli (meaning Zionist) state and absolutely do not support the rioters. The problem has always been, in Arab society generally, that the moderate people are intimidated by the radicals and militants who are very violent and will kill for their so-called beliefs. There are a lot of weapons in every Arab town and these can be used for good old-fashioned crime or for ideological rampages, as what we see now.

Netanyahu absolutely bears responsibility for not cracking down on Arab criminality, whose victims are mainly other Arabs. Now we see that Jews can suffer too if the criminals decide to respond to Hamas' incitement. Netanyahu needs to be replaced for that reason and many others. But, one good thing he did do is bring Mansour Abbas and his Islamist Party into the political picture. Abbas is a new breed of Arab politician. He wants to improve the lives of Israeli Arab citizens and integrate them into the life of the society more. He never talks about the Palestinian issue at all. This is a red line for most Israeli Jews. The minute he would talk about that, no one would trust him.

He is now talking about repairing the damage to synagogues as the result of Arab rioting and participating in exercises to strengthen the civic indentity of Israeli Arabs. This is very brave of him and could provide a completely different model for Palestinian leadership in the future vs the model of the PLO with Arafat/Abbas or Hamas with their jihadism. Israeli Jews and the younger generation of Israeli Arabs have more in common culturally than most outsiders think. Israel today is shaped more by its Sephardi (Mizrachi) population than its Ashkenazi one, as surprising as that might seem. The old secular Ashkenzi elites have really declined in their cultural influence, and for good reasons. They have little to say that anyone wants to listen to. They abandoned Judaism and Zionism years ago to fit into the secular Western mold, and now they have discovered that their audiences have abandoned them. 90% of Israeli Jews are Zionist and/or religious. Their imitation Western culture doesn't speak to the reality or needs of 21st Israel, which is really now a Jewish and Middle Eastern country, not a secular and Western one.

I wish Mansour Abbas well. He could go very far as a new type of Arab leader who has popular support among his own people and willing collaborators among the Jewish population. The PLO in the West Bank has produced nobody of this type or caliber in 50 years of political activity, even with all the money and political recognition from Western and Arab countries. They have produced a litany of failure in all areas. That is why they face an existential crisis.
You say all the right things, but still refuse to draw the obvious conclusion:

Most West Bank Arabs are also moderate. If they were given a chance of becoming Israeli citizens, while the radical fringe was expelled to Jordan, chances are that those Arabs would truly become Israeli, although Muslim or Christian, and Israel could live in peace as another - but prosperous and developed - ME country. Does this require faith? Probably yes, but why wouldn't a generally religious people, like the Jews, be capable of an act of faith?...
Very simple Sertorio. An act of fait in a murderous mob that has been brainwashed from kindergarten age. to kill Jews is suicidal and Israelis post Oslo can not afford to do that as much as it may be tempting..
As for Ra'am Mansur Abbas: It might be a ray of hope but it can also be a dishonest Trojan horse. Only time will tell if his actions and those of his followers are true or a deception. I hope that they are true but he has a long long way to go until some people will be willing to entertain a leap of faith. Sadly as Ellen mentioned the militant Arabs might bring about his premature departure.
The act of faith I am suggesting is not in a murderous mob, but in the majority of decent West Bank Arabs who just want to live in peace, earn a decent living and educate their children. Once separated from the radical murderous Arabs, the decent Arab majority would act decently. This is what I hope a majority of Israelis will dare to believe.
Did you base the word majority on fact or fantasy? Are you more qualified to know what the people that you include in that term majority want than they do or their representatives say? You remind me many liberals who are certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that Radical Muslims will behave like peaceful herd of sheep if only....? They did not change a single bit for over a millennia. You will have to come up with a lot more convincing facts to begin to change minds. Surly the thousands of lives lost to the last two bouts of liberal shortsightedness would be in your way.
You are right, to a point. But how do you count the moderate and the extremist in a given population? What we know is that the extremist are very active, and the moderate very passive. That's why the extremist fringe often succeeds in giving the impression they represent the majority, when that is NEVER the case. From my own experience in Angola, during a revolutionary war, I know those willing to destroy and to murder are but a small fraction of those who only want peace. It is true they sometimes succeed in dragging the peaceful majority to join in the violence. But if you separate the peaceful majority from the extremist fringe - and that can be done - you can count on the majority to stay peaceful. Unless they are subject to such violence that they end up becoming violent themselves. But that can be prevented if the authorities are themselves a force for peace. My old man's advice is: trust the peaceful majority and they will respond with peace. But be sure you get rid of the extremist minority, by any means at your disposal. And don't punish the majority for the crimes of the minority.
The critical number is about 30% supporting a revolution is enough to have a successful revolution. That number can over come another 70% of people that want to hold power or just want to live their lives. It is easier to tear down sand castles than it is to build them. Also more instantly gratifying.

The status quote requires economic stability that is harder to maintain and build than tear down.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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dagbay
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Re: Israel

Post by dagbay » Mon May 17, 2021 12:22 pm

Doc wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 9:44 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 9:22 am
dagbay wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 8:58 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 4:33 am
dagbay wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 4:09 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 3:16 am
You say all the right things, but still refuse to draw the obvious conclusion:

Most West Bank Arabs are also moderate. If they were given a chance of becoming Israeli citizens, while the radical fringe was expelled to Jordan, chances are that those Arabs would truly become Israeli, although Muslim or Christian, and Israel could live in peace as another - but prosperous and developed - ME country. Does this require faith? Probably yes, but why wouldn't a generally religious people, like the Jews, be capable of an act of faith?...
Very simple Sertorio. An act of fait in a murderous mob that has been brainwashed from kindergarten age. to kill Jews is suicidal and Israelis post Oslo can not afford to do that as much as it may be tempting..
As for Ra'am Mansur Abbas: It might be a ray of hope but it can also be a dishonest Trojan horse. Only time will tell if his actions and those of his followers are true or a deception. I hope that they are true but he has a long long way to go until some people will be willing to entertain a leap of faith. Sadly as Ellen mentioned the militant Arabs might bring about his premature departure.
The act of faith I am suggesting is not in a murderous mob, but in the majority of decent West Bank Arabs who just want to live in peace, earn a decent living and educate their children. Once separated from the radical murderous Arabs, the decent Arab majority would act decently. This is what I hope a majority of Israelis will dare to believe.
Did you base the word majority on fact or fantasy? Are you more qualified to know what the people that you include in that term majority want than they do or their representatives say? You remind me many liberals who are certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that Radical Muslims will behave like peaceful herd of sheep if only....? They did not change a single bit for over a millennia. You will have to come up with a lot more convincing facts to begin to change minds. Surly the thousands of lives lost to the last two bouts of liberal shortsightedness would be in your way.
You are right, to a point. But how do you count the moderate and the extremist in a given population? What we know is that the extremist are very active, and the moderate very passive. That's why the extremist fringe often succeeds in giving the impression they represent the majority, when that is NEVER the case. From my own experience in Angola, during a revolutionary war, I know those willing to destroy and to murder are but a small fraction of those who only want peace. It is true they sometimes succeed in dragging the peaceful majority to join in the violence. But if you separate the peaceful majority from the extremist fringe - and that can be done - you can count on the majority to stay peaceful. Unless they are subject to such violence that they end up becoming violent themselves. But that can be prevented if the authorities are themselves a force for peace. My old man's advice is: trust the peaceful majority and they will respond with peace. But be sure you get rid of the extremist minority, by any means at your disposal. And don't punish the majority for the crimes of the minority.
The critical number is about 30% supporting a revolution is enough to have a successful revolution. That number can over come another 70% of people that want to hold power or just want to live their lives. It is easier to tear down sand castles than it is to build them. Also more instantly gratifying.

The status quote requires economic stability that is harder to maintain and build than tear down.
First I agree that there is a silent group that is interested in coexistence with no aspiration at this time to change the state of Israel character. Some brave soles have said so themselves at quite a risk to their own lives so I tend to believe them. There is no way to measure the proportion of such people in the Arab population but I would assume without evidence that there are more of them in Israel than under the PA or Hamas rule. Because they are passive and do not have control of the rest it is unlikely that they can serve to filter out the radicals from among them. As we know from world history there is not one place where Muslims are willing to live and let live (hell, not even among themselves). Once they become a significant minority their radicals take to the streets to turn the host country to another chaotic zone. The poor Swedes, French and Germans are living through that for years now. None of these countries was able to accomplish the exclusion of the radicals and elimination of the burning looting and murders from that ethnic minority. Israel found that the only solution that works is to tightly control the Arabs. Every place where that tight daily control is lax flares up immediately (Including in towns and villages where Arab citizens of Israel live). This is a Sisyphic endeavor of nightly raids based on high quality surveillance and intelligence to round up the perpetrators before they cause mayhem. It is a learned practice borne of years of riot management and as we see even this is not working so well some of the time. There is no end to this in sight. One must remember that this society still practices honor killings, hundred year lethal feuds between families. They are more likely to grab a gun then turn to legal resolution and still grab that gun if the legal resolution does not favor them. Life is less sacred to them as a group than family honor. I do not believe any of us on this forum will live long enough to see a change in that society but I see in front of our eyes how they have transformed new places that they migrated to into hellholes.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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