Israel

Discussion of current events
User avatar
Doc
Posts: 5503
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:09 pm
Location: Cradle To Grave

Re: Israel

Post by Doc » Fri May 14, 2021 9:18 pm

Ellen wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 3:53 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 3:06 pm
https://www.breitbart.com/middle-east/2 ... mbed-them/
Report: Israel Exaggerated Invasion to Lure Hamas Fighters into Tunnels, then Bombed Them
Yes, this shows that one of Hamas' main military strategies turned into not just a total fiasco, but in fact a death trap for its best combat soldiers. As soon as this particular incident ended, the Hamas leadership began to frantically demand a cease fire. Correctly, Netanyahu refused until Israeli military objectives are achieved.

This failure of the tunnel strategy is worse than it seems for the Iranian proxy axis. Hezbollah has also spearheaded this approach in Lebanon, in the event of a war with Israel. What this incident shows is that Hezbollah's tunnel strategy is also doomed for the same reason. This whole affair reminds me of the French Maginot Line in WWI. Huge resources were invested in that defensive strategy and it was a complete failure during WWII, as the Germans simply went around the Line in places where there were holes. In this case, the Israeli air force was able to bomb the tunnels to the extent that they collapsed, killing hundreds of Hamas soldiers, including many of their top field commanders.
Israel had to know where the tunnels were.

Otherwise Israel VS Gaza is summed up nicely here:

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Letter_t ... r_12,_1864
HEADQUARTERS MILITARY DIVISION OF THE MISSISSIPPI IN THE FIELD, ATLANTA, GEORGIA, September 12, 1864.

JAMES M. CALHOUN, Mayor, E. E. RAWSON and S. C. Wares, representing City Council of Atlanta.

GENTLEMEN: I have your letter of the 11th, in the nature of a petition to revoke my orders removing all the inhabitants from Atlanta. I have read it carefully, and give full credit to your statements of the distress that will be occasioned, and yet shall not revoke my orders, because they were not designed to meet the humanities of the case, but to prepare for the future struggles in which millions of good people outside of Atlanta have a deep interest. We must have peace, not only at Atlanta, but in all America. To secure this, we must stop the war that now desolates our once happy and favored country. To stop war, we must defeat the rebel armies which are arrayed against the laws and Constitution that all must respect and obey. To defeat those armies, we must prepare the way to reach them in their recesses, provided with the arms and instruments which enable us to accomplish our purpose. Now, I know the vindictive nature of our enemy, that we may have many years of military operations from this quarter; and, therefore, deem it wise and prudent to prepare in time. The use of Atlanta for warlike purposes is inconsistent with its character as a home for families. There will be no manufactures, commerce, or agriculture here, for the maintenance of families, and sooner or later want will compel the inhabitants to go. Why not go now, when all the arrangements are completed for the transfer,—instead of waiting till the plunging shot of contending armies will renew the scenes of the past months. Of course, I do not apprehend any such thing at this moment, but you do not suppose this army will be here until the war is over. I cannot discuss this subject with you fairly, because I cannot impart to you what we propose to do, but I assert that our military plans make it necessary for the inhabitants to go away, and I can only renew my offer of services to make their exodus in any direction as easy and comfortable as possible.

You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace. But you cannot have peace and a division of our country. If the United States submits to a division now, it will not stop, but will go on until we reap the fate of Mexico, which is eternal war. The United States does and must assert its authority, wherever it once had power; for, if it relaxes one bit to pressure, it is gone, and I believe that such is the national feeling. This feeling assumes various shapes, but always comes back to that of Union. Once admit the Union, once more acknowledge the authority of the national Government, and, instead of devoting your houses and streets and roads to the dread uses of war, I and this army become at once your protectors and supporters, shielding you from danger, let it come from what quarter it may. I know that a few individuals cannot resist a torrent of error and passion, such as swept the South into rebellion, but you can point out, so that we may know those who desire a government, and those who insist on war and its desolation.

You might as well appeal against the thunder-storm as against these terrible hardships of war. They are inevitable, and the only way the people of Atlanta can hope once more to live in peace and quiet at home, is to stop the war, which can only be done by admitting that it began in error and is perpetuated in pride.

We don't want your negroes, or your horses, or your houses, or your lands, or any thing you have, but we do want and will have a just obedience to the laws of the United States. That we will have, and, if it involves the destruction of your improvements, we cannot help it.

You have heretofore read public sentiment in your newspapers, that live by falsehood and excitement; and the quicker you seek for truth in other quarters, the better. I repeat then that, by the original compact of Government, the United States had certain rights in Georgia, which have never been relinquished and never will be; that the South began war by seizing forts, arsenals, mints, custom-houses, etc., etc., long before Mr. Lincoln was installed, and before the South had one jot or tittle of provocation. I myself have seen in Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Mississippi, hundreds and thousands of women and children fleeing from your armies and desperadoes, hungry and with bleeding feet. In Memphis, Vicksburg, and Mississippi, we fed thousands upon thousands of the families of rebel soldiers left on our hands, and whom we could not see starve. Now that war comes home to you; you feel very different. You deprecate its horrors, but did not feel them when you sent car-loads of soldiers and ammunition, and moulded shells and shot, to carry war into Kentucky and Tennessee, to desolate the homes of hundreds and thousands of good people who only asked to live in peace at their old homes, and under the Government of their inheritance. But these comparisons are idle. I want peace, and believe it can only be reached through union and war, and I will ever conduct war with a view to perfect and early success.

But, my dear sirs, when peace does come, you may call on me for any thing. Then will I share with you the last cracker, and watch with you to shield your homes and families against danger from every quarter.

Now you must go, and take with you the old and feeble, feed and nurse them, and build for them, in more quiet places, proper habitations to shield them against the weather until the mad passions of men cool down, and allow the Union and peace once more to settle over your old homes at Atlanta. Yours in haste,

W. T. SHERMAN, Major-General commanding.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

Jim the Moron
Posts: 2288
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:51 pm

Re: Israel

Post by Jim the Moron » Sat May 15, 2021 9:26 pm

Eli Cohen ("Israel's greatest spy")
https://jewishvirtuallibrary.org/eli-cohen

Hey, I know of some places up on the Golan where we can plant some cooling eucalyptus trees . . .

Ellen
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:02 pm

Re: Israel

Post by Ellen » Sun May 16, 2021 1:46 am

Right Jim. That was Eli Cohen's greatest contribution, among many. The capture of the Golan in the 1967 war was made possible in record time due to the most primitive form of intelligence gathering ever. Whereever there were eukalyptus trees, there was a Syrian bunker. Economical and pinpointed, with no collateral damage from bombing.

User avatar
dagbay
Posts: 508
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:27 pm

Re: Israel

Post by dagbay » Sun May 16, 2021 5:42 am

The biggest loser of this last round of violence other than all the people who were injured and killed is the PA and it's leadership. Hamas cemented in the Arab street it's leadership and Abbas,'s irrelevance. To avoid this outcome Israel must decimate the Hamas's leadership. That would create a political vacuum which will not have a predictable outcome.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 5122
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Israel

Post by Sertorio » Sun May 16, 2021 6:28 am

dagbay wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 5:42 am
The biggest loser of this last round of violence other than all the people who were injured and killed is the PA and it's leadership. Hamas cemented in the Arab street it's leadership and Abbas,'s irrelevance. To avoid this outcome Israel must decimate the Hamas's leadership. That would create a political vacuum which will not have a predictable outcome.
Unfortunately the biggest loser is Israel. The cycle of violence cannot continue as the Arabs capacity to cause serious damage to the population of Israel is increasing. I continue thinking that a single state solution, with Israeli citizenship being offered to those West Bank Arabs who may wish it - the others being told they would have to leave the country -, is the only way to stop the violence. The longer the violence goes on, the harder it will be for Israel to retain the support of Americans and Europeans.

Ellen
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:02 pm

Re: Israel

Post by Ellen » Sun May 16, 2021 7:11 am

Not true Sertorio. Nobody is defending Hamas in this war, including their usual defenders - Europeans and Arabs. Even their supporters like Iran and Hezbollah have bailed out. They are utterly friendless.

The Czech and Austrian governments are flying the Israeli flag today in support of the Israeli war effort. Back in the 1980's during the Lebanon war, both of these governments supported the Palestinians. In order to fly the Israeli flag, the Czech government took down the EU flag, apparently. Now that is symbolism for you.

User avatar
Doc
Posts: 5503
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:09 pm
Location: Cradle To Grave

Re: Israel

Post by Doc » Sun May 16, 2021 9:21 am

Ellen wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 7:11 am
Not true Sertorio. Nobody is defending Hamas in this war, including their usual defenders - Europeans and Arabs. Even their supporters like Iran and Hezbollah have bailed out. They are utterly friendless.

The Czech and Austrian governments are flying the Israeli flag today in support of the Israeli war effort. Back in the 1980's during the Lebanon war, both of these governments supported the Palestinians. In order to fly the Israeli flag, the Czech government took down the EU flag, apparently. Now that is symbolism for you.
The biggest concern for Israel is not what people think in foreign capitals but what Israeli Arabs think. Not sure how it started but it *seems* to me like Netanyahu made a mistake.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 5122
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Israel

Post by Sertorio » Sun May 16, 2021 9:58 am

Doc wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 9:21 am
Ellen wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 7:11 am
Not true Sertorio. Nobody is defending Hamas in this war, including their usual defenders - Europeans and Arabs. Even their supporters like Iran and Hezbollah have bailed out. They are utterly friendless.

The Czech and Austrian governments are flying the Israeli flag today in support of the Israeli war effort. Back in the 1980's during the Lebanon war, both of these governments supported the Palestinians. In order to fly the Israeli flag, the Czech government took down the EU flag, apparently. Now that is symbolism for you.
The biggest concern for Israel is not what people think in foreign capitals but what Israeli Arabs think. Not sure how it started but it *seems* to me like Netanyahu made a mistake.
I tend to agree with you on this...

User avatar
Milo
Posts: 3272
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:14 pm

Re: Israel

Post by Milo » Sun May 16, 2021 10:02 am

As usual the Palestinian thugs will push those most likely to succeed to the front and let Israel kill them for them. They will then demand vast compensation for the favour.

Getting ‘their land' back is the last thing they want. They might have to give up some of their chateaux on the riviera.

Rinse and repeat.

User avatar
dagbay
Posts: 508
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:27 pm

Re: Israel

Post by dagbay » Sun May 16, 2021 11:38 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 9:58 am
Doc wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 9:21 am
Ellen wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 7:11 am
Not true Sertorio. Nobody is defending Hamas in this war, including their usual defenders - Europeans and Arabs. Even their supporters like Iran and Hezbollah have bailed out. They are utterly friendless.

The Czech and Austrian governments are flying the Israeli flag today in support of the Israeli war effort. Back in the 1980's during the Lebanon war, both of these governments supported the Palestinians. In order to fly the Israeli flag, the Czech government took down the EU flag, apparently. Now that is symbolism for you.
The biggest concern for Israel is not what people think in foreign capitals but what Israeli Arabs think. Not sure how it started but it *seems* to me like Netanyahu made a mistake.
I tend to agree with you on this...
Quite to the contrary! The recent events will strengthen Netanyahu (even though many would like him to leave office). All of his opponents have been caught with their pants down (or completely nude) and everyone is pointing at them including some left wingers who are unable to ratiionalize the Arab (Israeli full equal rights citizenry) behavior.
No ! These scenes bring back for many Jews the riots of 1939. The massacre of the Jews of Hebron and Jerusalem. They show exactly what is an Arab neighbor and they demonstrate exactly how that unbelievably short transition from a friend to a murders foe happens.
In the first Arab intifada we saw the very same transition, almost like a switch was thrown. An Arab village who's people shared coffee and pita just a day before cane at their neighbors with rocks and knives.
So Sertorio, as I suggested before there will never be a country that will include more Arabs citizens as you push for. Maybe in France but not in Israel. What is truly sad is the few civilized Arabs that stood with law and order. They may not live long (Arabs do not take kindly to those of their own who go against the tribe) but they should be counted.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

Post Reply