Israel

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Jim the Moron
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Re: Israel

Post by Jim the Moron » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:44 am

dagbay wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:37 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:42 am
dagbay wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:41 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:34 am
dagbay wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:47 pm
Ellen wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:56 pm
"Sadly most people that I came across are incapable of finding their way in life without some degree of religious belief and imposed moral code. I myself may belong to that group."

Why should anyone feel sad about this fact. I find that logic stupefying. .....
Ellen, I do not disagree with your comments but would like to clarify why I am saddned by the failure of humanism to provide a basis for a just and plural society. In my view as a scientist it is hard to reconcile the religious account with what little we know of the world we live in. It would be nice if we could perfect ourselves to a level where a humanistic theology would bring peace and harmony along. But here the sadness comes in, we fail in this effort for there are fundamental limits to human ability and to human defined rules in that they are subjective on some level and are mutable. This is where religion has anew advantage since it is by definition mostly immutable. So I'm left to struggle between everyday and the Sabbath.
Human rights seem to be that basis, and the foundation for our code of ethics. Of course, not disposing of a "hell", human rights must rely on people's willingness to respect them, not on fear of being forever punished in some unspeakable fiery environment. What is surprising is that, in spite of everything, human rights are so well accepted by so many people, and seem to be recognized as valid even by those who regularly offend them. And although the scope of human rights has been expanding as time goes by, their foundation seems more immutable than most religions I know. Just think of the death penalty. So well accepted formerly by the Christian faith, and now condemned by most Christian leaders. Or the evolution of Sabbath practices among Jews - with the exception of the ultra orthodox.
Sertorio, we had this discussion once or twice in the past. Any man made theology was/is prone to subjective mutations more than religious theologies.
For the reasons I gave above, I absolutely do not agree with you. I wish you would argue in a more concrete way...
I know you belive that a Humanistic theology based on human rights can be sustainable. I disagree because both keywords in the statement above are subjective. They are relative to the prevailing culture. Human rights was once the rights of the elites who owned the land, at later period it was the slave owner's rights and still later the Comunists leadership or capitalists eliets. it is easy to believe at each epoch that those are the natural rights because we are all egoistic to believe that what we are accustomed to is the normal.
By accepting that man defines morality, you can be happy with unbelievable atrocities only later defined as such. OTOH, I do not claim that any religion is the ultimate model but the key edge that religions have is that their basic tenants are fixed to a large extent (there is still an issue of interpretation). Remember that all religions are after all man made but are defined in the absolute. Thou shall not kill, is not in the eye of the current generation or an enchient one. It applies to both young and old. A theology made based on current perception of human rights can be defined but it will be valid to this moment in history. One would hope that future redefinitions will be a refinement of current ideas but there is no guarantee of that and there are plenty of ideas once considered just, now deemed unacceptable as well as the opposite; once unthinkable ideas becoming normative even if they go against the common wisdom.
You brought up the Death penalty once common now abhorred by most but equally infanticide once considered unthinkable is accepted and performed widely today.

Then there is the issue of acceptance. Certainly the elite philosophers who come up with the theology will or pretend to follow it's tenants. However the general public who is not invested in the process does not have any reason to follow. Religions use fear of future punishment or promises of future rewards to coerce adherance. That is not satisfactory in the modern concept of reality but sill has some clout and will for centuries more for most people.
Remember, if you can define what's right and what's not why can't I from my egoistic POV?

". . . the Death penalty once common now abhorred by most but equally infanticide once considered unthinkable is accepted and performed widely today."
The trouble is - babies can't speak for themselves and therefore cannot resist the unspeakable slaughter.

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dagbay
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Re: Israel

Post by dagbay » Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:46 pm

https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-late ... 1001358630
For you Sertorio, as promised short of a week before final deadline for party registrations we can start to make sense of the parties involved in the upcoming elections. The average of pols means nothing more than the electrons used to write that summary. It will change as parties try to play the pre-elections political games forming blocks and making agreements that will be broken shortly thereafter as new opportunities come up. But as of this moment these are the key players:

Likud - Led by Netanyahu, a right of center party with a platform of economic free market (sort of), emphasis on win-win political foreign relations, strong on Israel defense and moderate social welfare positions. It seems to be where the largest block of voters wants to be for now, although Netanyahu might have overstayed his welcome at the head of the party. The Likud party has led Israel mostly on but sometimes off since the great change in 1976's Begin's win. It has been responsible for transforming Israel's economy from a socialist cartel into a modern semi-capitalistic roaring wealth engine. It has brought about prosperity but also significant inequality .

Yesh Atid - Led by Yair Lapid, claims to be center, but is actually substantially left of center, stronger social welfare positions, considered weaker by Israelis on defense issues although in past it boasted a few ex-generals in leadership. It has scooped up many of the left votes in prior elections.

New Hope - Led by former Likud member Gidon Saar, so far seems as the Likud "Just not Netanyahu" party. It was recently established so not much is known about its platform except for the well publicized statement that it will work to legalize Cannabis. Having roots in the Likud party it will be probably similar in positions.

Yamina - Led by Naftali Benet, right wing party with clear stand about the future of Israel's borders and is supported by many Modern Orthodox Jews AKA Kipot Srugot, who are fully engaged in Israeli economy and serve in the IDF.

Joint Arab List - Joint Arab List, a four-party ticket formed in 2015 that represents Ra'am, Ta'al, Hadash, and Balad. There is more differences in the political positions of these parties than what unifies them. All would be considered on the left of the political map and one of them an Islamist party would be actually off the left side. The unification provided these parties sufficient poetical clout that they nearly sat in the previous government. Gantz is is actually being punished by the electorate for considering their support. These parties are Anti-Zionists and their leaders seem not to care about the votes plight rather they quarrel among themselves to get respect and personal benefits. https://www.israelhayom.com/2021/01/27/ ... s-predict/

United Torah Judaism - Religious group of parties and sects including Hassidic and Lithuanian orthodox branches and several sub divisions of them. The party has a right wing but heavily orthodox slant caring for their constituency welfare. Many of the voters for this party are on the fringe of the economy and do not serve in the IDF declaring their bible study as their trade but they are starting to integrate into society in the last decades. The political leadership of this party follows the decisions of the council of Tora scholars.

Shas - Is a right wing Spharadi Jewish party that focuses on supporting their voter needs and welfare. This party has a large following in low income Spharadi dominated towns. It follows the guidance of the Spharadi chief rabbi.

Yisrael Beitenu - Led by Avigdor Liberman, a centrist party with right leanings. It has an anti-religious platform seeking to secularize and reduce the hold of the Orthodox side on the country. Most of the voters are former immigrants from the soviet block.

Meretz - Led by Merav Michaeli, a far left party focused on wealth redistribution and claims to represent the workers. It has a very weak stand on Israeli sovereignty and claims a social justice platform. Its Labor party component was responsible for the Oslo accords fiasco. Once the largest party by far, It has been in effect banished by most Israelis.

Blue & White - Gantz party stands on the left side of the political map. As mentioned it does not have a consistent message but in the prior election cycle it entered as a block with Yesh Atid to form a left counterweight to the Likud and nearly succeeded (only that there are many more right wing splinter parties than left ones so it could not form by itself a coalition and ended up as the tail in Netanyahu's Government.

The Israelis - Led by Huldai, a former mayor of Tel Aviv. it is a new party with left wing agenda that may integrate into the Labor party as it seems on the verge of viability.

You can find lots of information about the historic stands of the older parties in Wikipedia but we will find in a short time what they are really made of. You have to keep in mind the following though. The Arab parties are considered nuclear - no Israeli government can stand with their support because of their explicit Anti-Israel positions. Given the choice they will work towards converting Israel into another Arab state. No one in the other parties wants their support and when Gantz entertained in the last round it it backfired on him electorally big time.
Also it seems that in spite of Gidon Saar breaking off the LiKud party it is still significantly ahead for now....
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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Sertorio
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Re: Israel

Post by Sertorio » Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:32 am

Dagbay,

Most interesting. I thank you very much for the effort, which, I think, has enabled me to understand a bit better the political maize in Israel. I just wonder how a common Israeli can make his/her mind faced with such a diverse offer. If I were an Israeli citizen I would have trouble making up my mind!... I will be looking forward to the elections and their result. Once more, thank you.

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dagbay
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Re: Israel

Post by dagbay » Sat Jan 30, 2021 7:01 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:32 am
Dagbay,

Most interesting. I thank you very much for the effort, which, I think, has enabled me to understand a bit better the political maize in Israel. I just wonder how a common Israeli can make his/her mind faced with such a diverse offer. If I were an Israeli citizen I would have trouble making up my mind!... I will be looking forward to the elections and their result. Once more, thank you.
Simple, Sertorio, if you followed the list of parties you would note that each has a relatively constant voting block among the citizens. Only the center voters who are voting the main issues (economy, defense, foreign relations etc.) are floating depending on the perception of the parties and leaders. The far right, left, Religious and Arab vote is locked with very minimal change from one cycle to the next.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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Sertorio
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Re: Israel

Post by Sertorio » Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:08 am

Netanyahu Allies Compare Reform Jews to Dogs in Racist Election Ads
Mar. 3, 2021 12:51 PM

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/ele ... f6385f544c

Benjamin Netanyahu's ultra-Orthodox coalition partners have ratcheted up their election campaigns with incendiary material comparing Reform Jews to dogs and xenophobic ads warning that African asylum seekers would convert to Judaism.

The video, circulated on Wednesday by the ultra-Orthodox United Torah Judaism party, depicted dogs wearing ritual items like kippot, tallit, and tefillin, along with sidelocks and glasses. In an accompanying post on social media, the party asserted: “When the question of ‘Who is a Jew' is put in the hands of the High Court, this is the result.”

The “grandmother” reference in the video is designed to evoke outrage at the concept of female rabbis. The narrator ends the clip by declaring that “only United Torah Judaism will protect your Judaism, your children’s Judaism, and your grandchildren’s Judaism!”

Meanwhile, the ultra-Orthodox Shas party also circulated a campaign poster on social media on Wednesday depicting three Black men, reading: "Jews branded kosher by the High Court. Danger! Thousands of infiltrators and foreign workers will become Jews through Reform conversion. Only Shas will preserve a Jewish state."

The campaign ads were posted in the aftermath of Monday’s ruling by Israel’s High Court, which ordered the state to recognize Reform and Conservative conversions to Judaism performed in Israel for the purpose of obtaining Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return, angering ultra-Orthodox rabbis and the community’s political leadership.

'We shattered the paradigm, and the Israeli right-wing is going to win.' LISTEN to Election Overdose
Netanyahu's Likud Party has yet to comment on the ads, however, its reaction to the ruling was sympathetic to the ultra-Orthodox outrage.

The party’s response, retweeted by Netanyahu, declared that “The High Court has passed a resolution that endangers the Law of Return, which is a fundamental pillar of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state. Only a vote for the Likud will ensure a stable right-wing government that restores sovereignty to the people and the Knesset.”

The dog images in the United Torah Judaism ad were introduced with a clip of a family in the United States celebrating a “Bark Mitzvah,” a humorous party trend among U.S. Jews dating as far back as 1958. The “Bark Mitzvah” trend is frowned on by Orthodox rabbis in the U.S. as being disrespectful to religion. In Israel, it has long been used by ultra-Orthodox parties to denigrate the Reform movement as twisting Jewish traditions - even though the parties have no association with any stream of Judaism.

Image

Opposition leader Yair Lapid, head of the Yesh Atid Party, expressed outrage at the United Torah Judaism ad. Lapid tweeted: “My father once told me that on the parliament building in Budapest there was a sign saying 'No entry for Jews and dogs'. Antisemites throughout the generations compared between Jews and dogs, now United Torah Judaism have joined them. It’s disgusting.”

The Israeli chapter of the Anti-Defamation League denounced the United Torah Judaism video as “shocking and offensive.”

“The way to resolve such disputes is not through baseless hatred and the dehumanization of millions of Jews. It is sad to see that a party that protests insults when they are directed at the ultra-Orthodox behaves in the same way. It’s time to realize that there is more than one way to be Jewish and that millions of Jews cannot be prevented from choosing the way in which they express their Judaism.”

Along with the dog video, hackles were raised by remarks from United Torah Judaism lawmaker Yitzhak Pindrus, who said on a panel that a young woman with a non-Jewish mother and Jewish father who had converted in a program run by the Israel Defense Forces’ Nativ program, was not Jewish.

Repeatedly referring to the woman as a "goy" and a “shiksa,” he said he would not be pressured into recognizing such a conversion in order to be “pluralistic and polite.”

If a Jewish man were to marry her, he said, the man’s father should “sit shiva” and “say kaddish,” mourning his son as if he had died.

After Pindrus was roundly condemned for his remarks, even by supposed allies such as Bennett, who called his words “shameful,” the Knesset member apologized for using the word “shiksa” but stood by his position refusing to recognize the IDF-sponsored conversion program.

Lapid once again went on the attack, tweeting that the young female convert was, in his eyes “much more Jewish” than the politician who had insulted her.
This article seems to support my view that unless Israel becomes a secular state, these extremists will end up running the country. Which, I'm sure, most Jews would come to regret.

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