Israel

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neverfail
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Re: Israel extending its laws over most of the area of Judea and sumaria

Post by neverfail » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:33 am

Milo wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:17 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:53 pm
Milo wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:45 pm
Israel has returned nearly all the land it took by force already.
Like where and when?
The peace treaty between Egypt and Israel was signed 16 months after Egyptian president Anwar Sadat's visit to Israel in 1977 after intense negotiation. The main features of the treaty were mutual recognition, cessation of the state of war that had existed since the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, normalization of relations and the complete withdrawal by Israel of its armed forces and civilians from the Sinai Peninsula which Israel had captured during the Six-Day War in 1967. Egypt agreed to leave the area demilitarized. The agreement also provided for the free passage of Israeli ships through the Suez Canal, and recognition of the Strait of Tiran and the Gulf of Aqaba as international waterways.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt–I ... ace_Treaty
The Israeli disengagement from Gaza (Hebrew: תוכנית ההתנתקות, Tokhnit HaHitnatkut; in the Disengagement Plan Implementation Law), also known as "Gaza expulsion" and "Hitnatkut", was the withdrawal of the Israeli army from inside the Gaza Strip, and the dismantling of all Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip in 2005.[1]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli ... _from_Gaza
The Oslo Accords, signed between the Palestine Liberation Organization and Israel, created administrative districts with varying levels of Palestinian autonomy within each area. Area C, in which Israel maintained complete civil and security control, accounts for over 60% of the territory of the West Bank.[7]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank
The Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon took place after Israel invaded Lebanon during the 1982 Lebanon War and subsequently retained its forces to support the Christian South Lebanon Army in Southern Lebanon. In 1982, the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) and allied Free Lebanon Army Christian militias seized large sections of Lebanon, including the capital of Beirut, amid the hostilities of the wider Lebanese Civil War. Later, Israel withdrew from parts of the occupied area between 1983 and 1985, but remained in partial control of the border region known as the South Lebanon Security Belt, initially in coordination with the self-proclaimed Free Lebanon State, which executed a limited authority over portions of southern Lebanon until 1984, and later with the South Lebanon Army (transformed from Free Lebanon Army), until the year 2000.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli ... rn_Lebanon
That is not what I was talking about Milo.

Jim the Moron
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:51 pm

Re: Israel

Post by Jim the Moron » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:37 am

dagbay wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:10 am
Milo wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:17 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:53 pm
Milo wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:45 pm
Israel has returned nearly all the land it took by force already.
Like where and when?
The peace treaty between Egypt and Israel was signed 16 months after Egyptian president Anwar Sadat's visit to Israel in 1977 after intense negotiation. The main features of the treaty were mutual recognition, cessation of the state of war that had existed since the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, normalization of relations and the complete withdrawal by Israel of its armed forces and civilians from the Sinai Peninsula which Israel had captured during the Six-Day War in 1967. Egypt agreed to leave the area demilitarized. The agreement also provided for the free passage of Israeli ships through the Suez Canal, and recognition of the Strait of Tiran and the Gulf of Aqaba as international waterways.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt–I ... ace_Treaty
The Israeli disengagement from Gaza (Hebrew: תוכנית ההתנתקות, Tokhnit HaHitnatkut; in the Disengagement Plan Implementation Law), also known as "Gaza expulsion" and "Hitnatkut", was the withdrawal of the Israeli army from inside the Gaza Strip, and the dismantling of all Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip in 2005.[1]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli ... _from_Gaza
The Oslo Accords, signed between the Palestine Liberation Organization and Israel, created administrative districts with varying levels of Palestinian autonomy within each area. Area C, in which Israel maintained complete civil and security control, accounts for over 60% of the territory of the West Bank.[7]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank
The Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon took place after Israel invaded Lebanon during the 1982 Lebanon War and subsequently retained its forces to support the Christian South Lebanon Army in Southern Lebanon. In 1982, the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) and allied Free Lebanon Army Christian militias seized large sections of Lebanon, including the capital of Beirut, amid the hostilities of the wider Lebanese Civil War. Later, Israel withdrew from parts of the occupied area between 1983 and 1985, but remained in partial control of the border region known as the South Lebanon Security Belt, initially in coordination with the self-proclaimed Free Lebanon State, which executed a limited authority over portions of southern Lebanon until 1984, and later with the South Lebanon Army (transformed from Free Lebanon Army), until the year 2000.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli ... rn_Lebanon
And look at the consequences of these actions. A base for terror and terrible damage was established in Gaza and Lebanon, a terror base for ISIS in the vacated Sini peninsula where a cold peace (but a peaceful forced cooperation) endures spotted by mass killings of Eygeptian soldiers in the ever expanding SuShi wars and similar instability requiring Israeli security support to prop up that country's ruler in Jordan (as has been done occasionally since the 1950's.).
Israel - the only force for peace in the ME.

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Milo
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Re: Israel extending its laws over most of the area of Judea and sumaria

Post by Milo » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:14 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:33 am
Milo wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:17 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:53 pm
Milo wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:45 pm
Israel has returned nearly all the land it took by force already.
Like where and when?
The peace treaty between Egypt and Israel was signed 16 months after Egyptian president Anwar Sadat's visit to Israel in 1977 after intense negotiation. The main features of the treaty were mutual recognition, cessation of the state of war that had existed since the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, normalization of relations and the complete withdrawal by Israel of its armed forces and civilians from the Sinai Peninsula which Israel had captured during the Six-Day War in 1967. Egypt agreed to leave the area demilitarized. The agreement also provided for the free passage of Israeli ships through the Suez Canal, and recognition of the Strait of Tiran and the Gulf of Aqaba as international waterways.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt–I ... ace_Treaty
The Israeli disengagement from Gaza (Hebrew: תוכנית ההתנתקות, Tokhnit HaHitnatkut; in the Disengagement Plan Implementation Law), also known as "Gaza expulsion" and "Hitnatkut", was the withdrawal of the Israeli army from inside the Gaza Strip, and the dismantling of all Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip in 2005.[1]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli ... _from_Gaza
The Oslo Accords, signed between the Palestine Liberation Organization and Israel, created administrative districts with varying levels of Palestinian autonomy within each area. Area C, in which Israel maintained complete civil and security control, accounts for over 60% of the territory of the West Bank.[7]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank
The Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon took place after Israel invaded Lebanon during the 1982 Lebanon War and subsequently retained its forces to support the Christian South Lebanon Army in Southern Lebanon. In 1982, the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) and allied Free Lebanon Army Christian militias seized large sections of Lebanon, including the capital of Beirut, amid the hostilities of the wider Lebanese Civil War. Later, Israel withdrew from parts of the occupied area between 1983 and 1985, but remained in partial control of the border region known as the South Lebanon Security Belt, initially in coordination with the self-proclaimed Free Lebanon State, which executed a limited authority over portions of southern Lebanon until 1984, and later with the South Lebanon Army (transformed from Free Lebanon Army), until the year 2000.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli ... rn_Lebanon
That is not what I was talking about Milo.
You wanted to see Israel cease its expansion and give Palestinians back land. I proved that they have only done both, for decades. I don't see how that is not what you are talking about.

neverfail
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Re: Israel extending its laws over most of the area of Judea and sumaria

Post by neverfail » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:57 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:33 am
That is not what I was talking about Milo.
Milo wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:17 pm
You wanted to see Israel cease its expansion and give Palestinians back land. I proved that they have only done both, for decades. I don't see how that is not what you are talking about.
Handing Sinai back to Egypt; withdrawing from Lebanon etc does NOT constitute returning land to the Palestinians -and their settlements are still encroaching on Palestinian land on the West Bank.

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Milo
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Re: Israel extending its laws over most of the area of Judea and sumaria

Post by Milo » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:19 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:57 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:33 am
That is not what I was talking about Milo.
Milo wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:17 pm
You wanted to see Israel cease its expansion and give Palestinians back land. I proved that they have only done both, for decades. I don't see how that is not what you are talking about.
Handing Sinai back to Egypt; withdrawing from Lebanon etc does NOT constitute returning land to the Palestinians -and their settlements are still encroaching on Palestinian land on the West Bank.
They're only encroaching because they gave most of the West Bank back in the first place and also returned Gaza. That's over 200 square miles of territory returned.

There were Palestinians living in the other areas returned too. That their Muslims Umma won't help them after they've been returned is not Israel's fault and actually underscores the real Palestinian problem: that the Muslim world persecutes them, not Israel.

Jim the Moron
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:51 pm

Re: Israel

Post by Jim the Moron » Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:04 am

As with no doubt others on this forum, I've been following the aftermath of the voting. My knowledge of the internal affairs of Israel is quite limited, but I have a few observations:

1. Israeli Arabs continue to be a significant voting block. You can damn well betcha that they wouldn't exchange their life styles with Arabs in Muslim-governed lands.

2. It appears that political interests supporting expansion of Israel's boundaries may not prevail.

3. Forming a government there seems to be a complex process. An article in today's jpost.com aptly described it as a Sisyphean task.

neverfail
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Location: Singapore

Re: Israel extending its laws over most of the area of Judea and sumaria

Post by neverfail » Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:16 pm

Milo wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:19 am
neverfail wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:57 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:33 am
That is not what I was talking about Milo.
Milo wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:17 pm
You wanted to see Israel cease its expansion and give Palestinians back land. I proved that they have only done both, for decades. I don't see how that is not what you are talking about.
Handing Sinai back to Egypt; withdrawing from Lebanon etc does NOT constitute returning land to the Palestinians -and their settlements are still encroaching on Palestinian land on the West Bank.
They're only encroaching because they gave most of the West Bank back in the first place and also returned Gaza.
West Bank and Gaza were not theirs to return in any case. The Palestinian inhabitants had been living there for centuries - long before the State of Israel came into being.

Withdraw of ones invasive troops from a temporary military occupation (as in Sinai and south Lebanon) is not a gift.

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dagbay
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Re: Israel extending its laws over most of the area of Judea and sumaria

Post by dagbay » Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:39 am

neverfail wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:16 pm
nturies - long before the State of Israel came into being.

Withdraw of ones invasive troops from a temporary military occupation (as in Sinai and south Lebanon) is not a gift.
History does not agree with you assertion Neverfail, the truth is that for most of the intervening 2000 years of Jewish diaspora since Roman time the land was conquered by many but was mostly unpopulated by Arabs. There were small Arab villages and many nomads who came through. The most prosperous time want under the Ottoman empire. Jews have prospered under that empire and the train schedule's from that era include many Jewish towns listed by their Hebrew names owing to their relevance as stops. All through there were long standing lineages of Jewish people living in historical towns including in Zipori and Zfat, Jerusalem, Tel-Aviv, Hifa, Hebron, Bet Lehem and Many other. This is a fact born by historical, archeological, eye witness travelers and anecdotal family histories.
Why don't you ask yourself where did the 30000 Jews of Hebron who were murdered by Arabs on August 1929 come from with their Ottoman era deeds dating many dacades before the zionist movement was even a dream.
Or those 100000 Jews of Jerusalem who were mudered, expelled and looted that year? Remember this was before any mass immigration of Jews into Israel. Erlier still 1000's of the Jews of the Gallilee were murdered by Arabs in 1920. Note that in these cases the murdered represented a significant part of the Jewish population.
The massive brainwashing Arab "from time immemorial" claim is easily refutable through facts and evidence.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

neverfail
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Location: Singapore

Re: Israel extending its laws over most of the area of Judea and sumaria

Post by neverfail » Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:53 am

dagbay wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:39 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:16 pm
nturies - long before the State of Israel came into being.

Withdraw of ones invasive troops from a temporary military occupation (as in Sinai and south Lebanon) is not a gift.
History does not agree with you assertion Neverfail, the truth is that for most of the intervening 2000 years of Jewish diaspora since Roman time the land was conquered by many but was mostly unpopulated by Arabs. There were small Arab villages and many nomads who came through. The most prosperous time want under the Ottoman empire. Jews have prospered under that empire and the train schedule's from that era include many Jewish towns listed by their Hebrew names owing to their relevance as stops. All through there were long standing lineages of Jewish people living in historical towns including in Zipori and Zfat, Jerusalem, Tel-Aviv, Hifa, Hebron, Bet Lehem and Many other. This is a fact born by historical, archeological, eye witness travelers and anecdotal family histories.
Why don't you ask yourself where did the 30000 Jews of Hebron who were murdered by Arabs on August 1929 come from with their Ottoman era deeds dating many dacades before the zionist movement was even a dream.
Or those 100000 Jews of Jerusalem who were mudered, expelled and looted that year? Remember this was before any mass immigration of Jews into Israel. Erlier still 1000's of the Jews of the Gallilee were murdered by Arabs in 1920. Note that in these cases the murdered represented a significant part of the Jewish population.
The massive brainwashing Arab "from time immemorial" claim is easily refutable through facts and evidence.



Well hi Dagbay.

I find the content of your above post very interesting and, while I was aware of anti-Jewish riots during the inter-World War decades; no doubt a reaction by the local gentiles against the visibly rapid increase in Jewish numbers leading to fears of an alien takeover; I was unaware that the Jewish death toll had been so high. So thanks for the information.

But frankly Dagbay your post still left me feeling unsatisfied. It prompted me to do a little research in order to ascertain the facts. As a consequence I came up with the following:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demograph ... e_(region)

Please note the table titled Overview of Palestine's demographics from the 1st century to the Mandate Era on the RHS near the top of the Wikipedia page. It reveals:

1. Jews ceased to be the majority population of the holy land by the end of the 4th century AD. Even at the time of Christ there were gentiles living in the land between the Jordan River and the adjacent Mediterranean coastline just as there were plenty of Jews living permanently outside their home country. That Judism survived at all may well be due to these early colonies of diaspora Jews already established abroad - predominantly in Roman Empire cities located around the eastern Mediterranean.

2. Initially, the Gentile majority population remained Christian. Since Israel/Palestine was part of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire the Christianity would have been of the eastern Orthodox kind.

3. Even after the Arab-Islamic conquests of the region around 639 - 641 AD the country still remained predominantly Christian. IT seems that the new rulers preferred to collect sharia taxes from their subjects rather than force them to accept Islam.

4. Muslims became the majority of the population and Christians the minority only towards the end of the 12th century. That is significant for it coincides with the Muslim re-conquest of the kingdom that the Crusaders had established over 90 years earlier by the legendary Salah-ah-din Yusef - better known in the West by his shorthand name Saladin. To bring about that Muslim majority I doubt whether Saladin invited settlers in from other Islamic countries but rather a lot of them would have been local former Christians who accepted Islam out of fear of their lives. The older Muslin tolerance of Christians must have come to an end. They had tolerated a Christian majority before the first Crusade and it only made it easy for the Crusaders to consolidate their grip on the country. Never again!

5. After the Ottoman Turkish conquest (from the Mamelukes) in early 16th century the Ottomon bureaucrats must have begun recording accurate statistics for the first time. For after 1533 the table shows population numbers and also records the local Jewry as an insignificant small component in the population. Muslims (the Arabic language and Arabic written script came with the Koran) remained overwhelmingly in the majority.

5. During the latter 19th century into the beginning of the 20th the Jewish population rose considerably yet still remained small compared to that of the Muslim (i.e. Palestinian Arabic). I have reason to believe that the Ottoman government had developed a belated interest in 19th century economic/technological development for their empire and likely saw Jewish immigrant-settlers as facilitating that longed for modernization.

6. By 1947, on the eve of the emergence of the State of Israel the total Jewish population was still only about half the size of the Palestinian/Arab/Muslim one.

I hope by now that I have convinced you by now that for a period around 1500 years the population of the land between the Jordan and the Mediterranean was predominantly Gentile and for much of that time overwhelmingly so: firstly Christian then later on Muslim/Arabic. Those latter were not as you try to allege Bedouin nomads who drifted in from the adjacent desert country but farmers and townsmen who had been settled there for umpteen generations.

When reading your post Dagbay I had been left with the impression that the slanted information contained within was more likely an exercise in advocacy for the Zionist cause than a sincere, objective, scholarly attempt to arrive at the truth. :D

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dagbay
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Re: Israel

Post by dagbay » Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:04 am

neverfail wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:53 am
dagbay wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:39 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:16 pm
nturies - long before the State of Israel came into being.

Withdraw of ones invasive troops from a temporary military occupation (as in Sinai and south Lebanon) is not a gift.
History does not agree with you assertion Neverfail, the truth is that for most of the intervening 2000 years of Jewish diaspora since Roman time the land was conquered by many but was mostly unpopulated by Arabs. There were small Arab villages and many nomads who came through. The most prosperous time want under the Ottoman empire. Jews have prospered under that empire and the train schedule's from that era include many Jewish towns listed by their Hebrew names owing to their relevance as stops. All through there were long standing lineages of Jewish people living in historical towns including in Zipori and Zfat, Jerusalem, Tel-Aviv, Hifa, Hebron, Bet Lehem and Many other. This is a fact born by historical, archeological, eye witness travelers and anecdotal family histories.
Why don't you ask yourself where did the 30000 Jews of Hebron who were murdered by Arabs on August 1929 come from with their Ottoman era deeds dating many dacades before the zionist movement was even a dream.
Or those 100000 Jews of Jerusalem who were mudered, expelled and looted that year? Remember this was before any mass immigration of Jews into Israel. Erlier still 1000's of the Jews of the Gallilee were murdered by Arabs in 1920. Note that in these cases the murdered represented a significant part of the Jewish population.
The massive brainwashing Arab "from time immemorial" claim is easily refutable through facts and evidence.



Well hi Dagbay.

I find the content of your above post very interesting and, while I was aware of anti-Jewish riots during the inter-World War decades; no doubt a reaction by the local gentiles against the visibly rapid increase in Jewish numbers leading to fears of an alien takeover; I was unaware that the Jewish death toll had been so high. So thanks for the information.

But frankly Dagbay your post still left me feeling unsatisfied. It prompted me to do a little research in order to ascertain the facts. As a consequence I came up with the following:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demograph ... e_(region)

Please note the table titled Overview of Palestine's demographics from the 1st century to the Mandate Era on the RHS near the top of the Wikipedia page. It reveals:

1. Jews ceased to be the majority population of the holy land by the end of the 4th century AD. Even at the time of Christ there were gentiles living in the land between the Jordan River and the adjacent Mediterranean coastline just as there were plenty of Jews living permanently outside their home country. That Judism survived at all may well be due to these early colonies of diaspora Jews already established abroad - predominantly in Roman Empire cities located around the eastern Mediterranean.

2. Initially, the Gentile majority population remained Christian. Since Israel/Palestine was part of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire the Christianity would have been of the eastern Orthodox kind.

3. Even after the Arab-Islamic conquests of the region around 639 - 641 AD the country still remained predominantly Christian. IT seems that the new rulers preferred to collect sharia taxes from their subjects rather than force them to accept Islam.

4. Muslims became the majority of the population and Christians the minority only towards the end of the 12th century. That is significant for it coincides with the Muslim re-conquest of the kingdom that the Crusaders had established over 90 years earlier by the legendary Salah-ah-din Yusef - better known in the West by his shorthand name Saladin. To bring about that Muslim majority I doubt whether Saladin invited settlers in from other Islamic countries but rather a lot of them would have been local former Christians who accepted Islam out of fear of their lives. The older Muslin tolerance of Christians must have come to an end. They had tolerated a Christian majority before the first Crusade and it only made it easy for the Crusaders to consolidate their grip on the country. Never again!

5. After the Ottoman Turkish conquest (from the Mamelukes) in early 16th century the Ottomon bureaucrats must have begun recording accurate statistics for the first time. For after 1533 the table shows population numbers and also records the local Jewry as an insignificant small component in the population. Muslims (the Arabic language and Arabic written script came with the Koran) remained overwhelmingly in the majority.

5. During the latter 19th century into the beginning of the 20th the Jewish population rose considerably yet still remained small compared to that of the Muslim (i.e. Palestinian Arabic). I have reason to believe that the Ottoman government had developed a belated interest in 19th century economic/technological development for their empire and likely saw Jewish immigrant-settlers as facilitating that longed for modernization.

6. By 1947, on the eve of the emergence of the State of Israel the total Jewish population was still only about half the size of the Palestinian/Arab/Muslim one.

I hope by now that I have convinced you by now that for a period around 1500 years the population of the land between the Jordan and the Mediterranean was predominantly Gentile and for much of that time overwhelmingly so: firstly Christian then later on Muslim/Arabic. Those latter were not as you try to allege Bedouin nomads who drifted in from the adjacent desert country but farmers and townsmen who had been settled there for umpteen generations.

When reading your post Dagbay I had been left with the impression that the slanted information contained within was more likely an exercise in advocacy for the Zionist cause than a sincere, objective, scholarly attempt to arrive at the truth. :D
HI Never fail, in my comments I did not claim at any time that Jews were the majority of people in the area under discussion during those 1500 years. I corrected your assertion that they are strangers in the land by indicating that there was a continuous presence and that that it was substantial even though it was not a majority. The Jews became a majority in Israel "thanks" to the Arab expulsion of Jews from Arab lands post the declaration of independence in 1948. The expulsion amounted to a population exchange only the Arabs stayed put. The numbers of Jews that were expelled and ended up in Israel is known to be a bit over 1M out of a larger number of them who had to leave their lives behind. Many famillis with history of well over a millenia in those countries.
As far as world affairs are considered there are many displaced populations over modern history. Most have been absorbed in their destination countries. I believe that Arabs are the only ones who get to carry on their refugee status in perpetuity in spite of the enormous amount of aid and good will that went their way - or maybe just because of it. In any case all the accounting of these historical data does not change the facts as of today that there is a population of Arabs and Jews in Israel and a dispute which is unsolvable in the current frame. Bold steps are needed to reframe the problem so that a solution may be found.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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