There is an 'increasing feeling' we are 'losing our democracy'

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Doc
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Re: There is an 'increasing feeling' we are 'losing our democracy'

Post by Doc » Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:51 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:04 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:22 pm
swarm of undocumented immigrants
Oh for goodness sake, this is not a "swarm", both in the sense that these are human beings, not insects, and in the sense that 10,000 is fewer people than Ellis Island used to be able to process in a single day. There are a third of a billion people in the U.S. These numbers are inconsequential, that we're even discussing it is the triumph of media hype.
So you do not believe in borders?
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Re: There is an 'increasing feeling' we are 'losing our democracy'

Post by SteveFoerster » Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:03 am

Doc wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:51 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:04 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:22 pm
swarm of undocumented immigrants
Oh for goodness sake, this is not a "swarm", both in the sense that these are human beings, not insects, and in the sense that 10,000 is fewer people than Ellis Island used to be able to process in a single day. There are a third of a billion people in the U.S. These numbers are inconsequential, that we're even discussing it is the triumph of media hype.
So you do not believe in borders?
Sure, just like the Belgians and Dutch do.

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Re: There is an 'increasing feeling' we are 'losing our democracy'

Post by Doc » Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:06 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:03 am
Doc wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:51 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:04 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:22 pm
swarm of undocumented immigrants
Oh for goodness sake, this is not a "swarm", both in the sense that these are human beings, not insects, and in the sense that 10,000 is fewer people than Ellis Island used to be able to process in a single day. There are a third of a billion people in the U.S. These numbers are inconsequential, that we're even discussing it is the triumph of media hype.
So you do not believe in borders?
Sure, just like the Belgians and Dutch do.

Image
Both are within the EU. I was refering to open borders for whoever wants to come in from where ever..
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Re: There is an 'increasing feeling' we are 'losing our democracy'

Post by SteveFoerster » Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:50 am

Doc wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:06 am
Both are within the EU. I was refering to open borders for whoever wants to come in from where ever..
I have no objection, so long as they're not eligible for public benefits.

Immigrants are an economic boon, especially in this era in which countries like the U.S. have birth rates that have dropped below population replacement. The U.S. is admitting far too few at this point.

Moreover, I don't remember the exact source, so if you take this with a grain of salt I'll understand, but surveying has been done to see how many people around the world actually would emigrate to the U.S. if they could, and the numbers are high but not overwhelming.

And that's without even considering that border controls are an affront to individual liberty, both of the prospective immigrant and of those in the country who would want to hire or otherwise associate with them. If my son's Caribbean relatives want to come to my house in Northern Virginia and stay a while, and I want that too, then that's nobody's business but ours.

By the way, not saying these are your positions, but I've seen conservative objections to immigration and am not impressed. Most require willful ignorance of the difference between public and private property (the insipid "then anyone should be able to live in your house!" counterargument) or rely on specious concerns about culture as if North American culture isn't hands down the best in the world at assimilation.
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Re: There is an 'increasing feeling' we are 'losing our democracy'

Post by neverfail » Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:00 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:04 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:22 pm
swarm of undocumented immigrants
Oh for goodness sake, this is not a "swarm", both in the sense that these are human beings, not insects, and in the sense that 10,000 is fewer people than Ellis Island used to be able to process in a single day. There are a third of a billion people in the U.S. These numbers are inconsequential, that we're even discussing it is the triumph of media hype.
Seemingly "inconsequental" if your mind is narrowly focused on the here and now. But you fail to take into account the long term consequences that can and will flow from the precedent being set. It leads to US immigration rules being treated with contempt: not least of all by the people smugglers.

As we here in Australia used to commonly say (about immigration from Asia) back in those long ago days when the white Australia rule applied in immigration: let one in and you might as well let the lot of them in.

I always thought that Donald Trump's vision of a border fence along with your border with Mexico was a good idea and a long overdue improvement: much as I disagreed with the man on other matters. It was and still is a good idea and I have often wondered about why your Congress kept on denying Trump during his tenure in high office of the needed funds to complete construction. Instead of treating the fence as a political football there should have been bi-artisan support for the construction as a national project.

(You Americans need never worry about having to built a similar fence along your even longer border with Canada. Canada, unlike shambolic Mexico, is a well disciplined and well regulated nation (more like Australia) with a history of cooperation with the US in migration matters.)
..............................................................................................................................................

Your above brief post gives me the impression that you Americans have the tradition of laissez-faire in immigration matters: hence the nonchalent tone of your advocacy. There are a quarter of a billion of us so what do another ten thousand or so matter? You do not believe in planning your society ahead - and out here the composition of our annual immigration intake is considered the key to the future shape of our nation (bearing in mind that there are still only 25 million of us). Whoever our authorities let in to the country as immigrant settlers today our descendents will have to live with for generations to come: so it is important to choose wisely now lest we include potential troublemakers who, incompatable with the established populace will only serve to make our nation disfunctional, insecure, and vulnerable as a 5th column within in future.

(We may have dropped race as a criteria in deciding who is or is not a suitable immigrant settler half a century ago but luckily have retained the concept of immigration as a tool for social planning from those times - and I thank God for that!)

But if you mention "social planning" to Americans the notion that seems to erupt in their minds is approximately of government control, tyranny and...Communism; and they never seem to comprehend just how much they are dudding themselves.

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Re: There is an 'increasing feeling' we are 'losing our democracy'

Post by Doc » Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:26 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:50 am
Doc wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:06 am
Both are within the EU. I was refering to open borders for whoever wants to come in from where ever..
I have no objection, so long as they're not eligible for public benefits.

Immigrants are an economic boon, especially in this era in which countries like the U.S. have birth rates that have dropped below population replacement. The U.S. is admitting far too few at this point.

Moreover, I don't remember the exact source, so if you take this with a grain of salt I'll understand, but surveying has been done to see how many people around the world actually would emigrate to the U.S. if they could, and the numbers are high but not overwhelming.

And that's without even considering that border controls are an affront to individual liberty, both of the prospective immigrant and of those in the country who would want to hire or otherwise associate with them. If my son's Caribbean relatives want to come to my house in Northern Virginia and stay a while, and I want that too, then that's nobody's business but ours.

By the way, not saying these are your positions, but I've seen conservative objections to immigration and am not impressed. Most require willful ignorance of the difference between public and private property (the insipid "then anyone should be able to live in your house!" counterargument) or rely on specious concerns about culture as if North American culture isn't hands down the best in the world at assimilation.
I have no objection to LEGAL immigration. Honestly I am not even worried about some illegal immigration. I used to help illegal immigrants stay out of trouble and advise them how to do things like deal with not getting a pay check that was due to be deposited in their bank that did not arrive there. Or the Mexican family I knew that had four children a roach infested apartment and no furniture. The father was a grave digger. They had no idea how to get ahead in life. I gave them my old couch and you can't believe how happy they and especially their kids were about it. My son got so excited about the other kids excitement that is the first time he ever walked. They all asked me for help because I was generally the only American they knew that they trusted, and there were quite a few on them.

What I am most concerned about is immigration tailored for a political agenda(s). The Democrats and the Republicans have been playing politics for years with immigration. The republicans started with immigration to suppress wages. The Democrats originally wanted immigration to get more votes. Now they want it to suppress wages as well. Which is what the root problem with our immigration system. IT IS ALL ABOUT MONEY AND POLITICS.

The effects of immigration are both positive and negative. For example Years ago I bought a home in the eastern US. A friend bought a home in Austin Texas. OUr home cost the same amount. However my friend's home is about three time the size of mine. The reason for the difference is that his house was built with illegal immigrant labor. SO the labor costs were greatly reduced.

The only reason for immigration for any country is to benefit that country.

Back when Clinton was president he made a deal with the CCP(he actually made a lot of deals with them) to banned Chinese students from apply for immigration to the US, That was because among other things the psychopaths running our large corporations saw dollar signs in moving a largepart of our manufacturing base to China. SO why doesn't China accept immigrants? They have a huge part of the manufacturing base they used to exist in the US so surely they have jobs to give immigrants.

Lenin was wrong when he said "Capitalists will sell us the rope which to hang them" The truth is our billionaires will sell the rope making machines which the rope can be made to hang them with. As long as they can get a great return on their money.

The Purpose of the CCP wanting to get their students back to CHina is because they figured that China could not industrialize if the students did not come back. The generally state of Chinese universities is that no one fails out of college in China. Which tells me that STEM degrees from China are not that great.

My people do not realize that a huge portion of the doctors in China went to US medical schools. That is why there have been so many CCP internal leaks about the Wuhan institute.

But my point is that people are generally motivated to come to the US because their own countries suck. On the one hand people get the government they deserve. On the other hand if they have never gotten an education where others did it is basically the same thing as here with the Corporate Psychopaths, and Banksters.

After the 2008 financial crisis that was created by the same banksters none of them went to jail. Even though crimes were certainly committed. Obama protected them from "the people with the pitch forks".

IE the problem is lack of a immigration policy that actually benefits the people of this country. SOuth Texas used to be a very pro Democrat party part of Texas. Not anymore.

https://time.com/5946848/donald-trump-h ... ers-texas/
Trump's South Texas Gains Vex Democrats


So th epeople most directly effected by illegal immigration loved Trump's border policy and they hate Biden's border policy. And if you have ever been to south Texas you would be absolutely certain that the majority of people living there are of Mexican descent and a large portion (probably the majority) are either immigrants or children of immigrants.

Many thousands of people every year die coming through Mexico at the hands of Narco terrorists / Human traffickers. There have been many notable massacres of such immigrants.


I have been to this town many many times. I used to stop there to get something to eat at a mom and pop restaurant when I passed through. I have not gone there for years because it is way to dangerous. There were actually two massacres there. Totaling 265 deaths. In the second the only person claiming to have escaped claimed that the women were all raped and murdered. The Men were given sledge hammers and told to fight each other to death (one on one) and the winners would be allowed to live if they joined the Narco Terrorists. The children were thrown into barrels of acid. SInce there is only one person that claims to have been a survivor there is no way to verify the story but Given the immense brutality of the Los Zetas there really isn't uch doubt in my mind as either this story being true that something as bad or even worse is the truth.

After all ISIS actually copied The brutality of the Mexican Narco Terrorists in conducting their own terrorism. There are actually videos online that show in extremely graphic terms Narco terrorists literally butchering people. Like cutting up people alive with axes ON VIDEO.

***Dangerous and extremely graphic site to go to.***:
https://elblogdelnarco.com/2014/08/11/l ... balaceras/

Lista de vídeos de ejecuciones, Interrogatorios y Balaceras


https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB445/

Mexico's San Fernando Massacres: A Declassified History


This guy used to cut down people hung from bridges along major street and roads

https://coffeeordie.com/mexican-police-ed-calderon/

Once Upon a Time in Mexico: A Former Tijuana Cop Now Teaches Secrets of the Trade


In other words people are traveling through one of the most, if not the most dangerous war zones IN THE WORLD to come illegally to the US. People are paying Coyotes to bring their children to the US illegally, or even sending them to come here alone.

IMHO the parent and relative of these Children who are in the US need to be criminally charged and have their children permanently taken away from them for child endangerment. After all If they show so little concern for their own children how much concern will they show for the children of others?

The going rate for the NArco Terrorist / Human Traffikers is said to be around $5,000 dollars. That means the Haitian illegal immigrants paid these terrorist $7,500,000.00 to allow them safe passage to our border. Right now there are 200,000 people being caught per month illegally crossing into the US THAT is $1 billion PER MONTH going to the Narco Terrorists. And that does not count the people that did not get caught crossing the border.

SO how much do you figure they would charge islamac terrorists to bring them to the border?

It does not matter if the US has an open borders policy, or not, as the Narco Terrorists / Human Traffickers control our southern border not the US government.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Re: There is an 'increasing feeling' we are 'losing our democracy'

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:21 am

The same way that Prohibition led to the rise of organised crime in the U.S., so too did the War on Drugs empower Mexican cartels to become the scourge on Mexico and the Southwestern U.S. If anything, American policymakers owe everyday Mexicans a great debt, not a closed door.
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Re: There is an 'increasing feeling' we are 'losing our democracy'

Post by Doc » Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:13 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:21 am
The same way that Prohibition led to the rise of organised crime in the U.S., so too did the War on Drugs empower Mexican cartels to become the scourge on Mexico and the Southwestern U.S. If anything, American policymakers owe everyday Mexicans a great debt, not a closed door.
If they let them in legally then they have to be paid legally. Which means higher wages, SS, Workers comp, and unemployment. That kind of defeats the idea of cheap imported labor. As far as the war on drugs the penalties for drug smuggling are not nearly high enough. Human Trafficking is a susbstitute for them for legalized pot in the US cutting into their business.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Re: There is an 'increasing feeling' we are 'losing our democracy'

Post by neverfail » Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:17 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:21 am
The same way that Prohibition led to the rise of organised crime in the U.S., so too did the War on Drugs empower Mexican cartels to become the scourge on Mexico and the Southwestern U.S. If anything, American policymakers owe everyday Mexicans a great debt, not a closed door.
"War on Drugs?" President L B Johnson talked about his "war on poverty".

Steve, could you explain to me (as an American who seems to talk sense more often than nonsense :) ) why US presidents seem to have this preference to inappropriately describe policy approaches to resolving social problems as "war".

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Re: There is an 'increasing feeling' we are 'losing our democracy'

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:15 pm

neverfail wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:17 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:21 am
The same way that Prohibition led to the rise of organised crime in the U.S., so too did the War on Drugs empower Mexican cartels to become the scourge on Mexico and the Southwestern U.S. If anything, American policymakers owe everyday Mexicans a great debt, not a closed door.
"War on Drugs?" President L B Johnson talked about his "war on poverty".

Steve, could you explain to me (as an American who seems to talk sense more often than nonsense :) ) why US presidents seem to have this preference to inappropriately describe policy approaches to resolving social problems as "war".
Thanks, I do try to keep the ratio healthy! :lol:

Anyway, it's even worse than that, in that these policy approaches invariably backfire, such that people here actually joke we should declare a War on Prosperity for then surely we'll have more of it than ever before.

As for why presidents and other politicians describe their policies in absurdly simplistic terms, well, let's just say Churchill wasn't wrong to suggest that the best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter....
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