American democracy died on Capitol Hill....

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Re: American democracy died on Capitol Hill....

Post by Doc » Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:40 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:38 pm
lzzrdgrrl wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:52 am
An Indian perspective from AsiaTimes on this:

https://asiatimes.com/2021/01/the-day-a ... racy-died/
Without doubt, the US has been fundamentally weakened on the international stage.

It has become a hopeless task to try to restore American deterrence and prestige. Rival powers will see new vulnerability in the US. Even the US’ firmest allies in Europe are wondering why they should place trust in the trans-Atlantic alliance with the North Atlantic Treaty Organization at its center when American politics has become so febrile.
Hi Izzy, - and thanks for posting the link. You saved me from having to do it. :)

From Asia Times' contributor and former diplomat M K Bhadrakumar's recent essay I take special note of his reference to Germany's tragic history. I recall within the last few weeks posting a reference to the Weimar Republic (1919 to 1933) failing to stop the rise of National Socialism until this cancer finally consumed its host:[]
Biden, a quintessential consensus maker who has described himself as a “transitional president,” is best qualified to address the root cause of the polarization in American politics before it turns into terminal malignancy.

The Europeans understand from their own history that the deeply flawed American variant of democracy can no longer represent and engage diffuse citizens, bringing them together for a common purpose, and politics is turning increasingly chaotic and despotic, and citizens and politicians feel threatened by executive overreach.

Foreign Minister Maas’ remark touches a raw nerve, but the future of American democracy may well depend on paying heed to Germany’s tragic history.
Yet in the case of the USA all may not be lost.

I truly hope that Bhadrakumar is absolutely right in that assessment of Biden and his potential for being the right man to lead America now and in the years to come. So much now rests on that mans shoulders.

(p.s. the USA will need to undertake decades of work to come in order to restore any credability as leader of the Western democracies.)


The Weimar republic was basically a failed state driven into extreme poverty due the the post war revenge taken out on it. Well lets wait and see how far into extreme poverty by the wacko Democrats
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Re: American democracy died on Capitol Hill....

Post by Doc » Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:45 pm

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Re: American democracy died on Capitol Hill....

Post by neverfail » Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:06 am

Doc wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:40 pm

The Weimar republic was basically a failed state driven into extreme poverty due the the post war revenge taken out on it. Well lets wait and see how far into extreme poverty by the wacko Democrats


You are right about the revenge part Doc but I believe you are barking up the wrong tree attributing it all to "extreme poverty".

The Weimar Republic never had a chance thanks top the myopia of the victors - especially that of the vengeful French. After the Kaiser fled to comfortable exile in the Netherlands the entire arostocratic order of imperial Germany folded. Into the political vacumn moved a coalition of poilitical parties including the social democrats. It was these who had to sign the onerous Versailles peace treaty that unjustly (in my opinion) placed the blame for World War One on Germany's shoulders.

Yes, there was widespread privation in Germany thanks to the cost of their war effort ( all of the former farmboys abscent in uniform at the war front caused food production to collapse and hunger to become widespread) and the cost of reparations demanded by the victors made things worse. However in addition to the economic dislocation was the insult of the unwilling acceptance of blame by Germany for the war written into the peace treaty - insult added to injury.

Bear in mind too that whereas the Allies had to fight basically on only one war front Germany and central allies had to fight two seperate wars on two fronts. Germany won handsomely on their easstern front with Russia before that country plunged into revolutionary upheaval. As a consequence of the (Brest Litovsk) prace treaty with the Bolsheviks Germay gained a considerable amount of ceded territiry along with handsome concessions like independence (under German suzerainty) for the Baltic states and Ukraine.

Yes, in the closing weeks of the war and with the help of new military tactics and hundreds of thousands of fresh American troops the Allies did take back a significent amount of territory in northern France from the occupying Germans but the salient fact was that by the time that Armistice (not a surrender but a mutually agreed to ceasefire) was declared there was not one single allied soldier anywhere on German soil but millions of Germans still In France and Belgium.

Try to ste things from the point of view of a typical German soldier returning home from the war front. Germany had won outright against Russia and essentially reached a stalemate situation in France and Belgium. To him it would likely have looked as though Germany had won WW1 "on points" - and now it was being treated as a defeated power.

Rumors of betrayal swilled within Weimar Germany just as they swearl within the USA now - and Weimar Germany did not even have :roll: either the internet or the equivalent of America's extreme right wing websites to sprerad enticing, lying propaganda electronically to the true believers.

The salient fact was that Germany had collapse within both economically and in social and domestic power structure and was therefore in no fit state to continue fighting. But that did not stop many millions of Germans from blaming the founders of the Weimar Republic for sellinjg Germany's interests short by signing the iniquitous Versailles treaty.


The legetimacy of the Weimar republic was never fully accepted by most Germans. Few Germans trusted either it or the political players involved.
..................................................................................................................................

Now, in the USA you likewise presently seem to have a scenario of widespread alienation from your system of government along with public mistrust of politics and politicans. Americans are at one anothers throats along partisan lines divided by hatred and incivility and it was exactly the same within Weimar Republic Germany.

Do you now see the "family resemblance" between the Weimar Republic of yore and the US Republic today?

(Sadly too, the USA did not even need to suffer a major military defeat to get into such a sad and sorry state either.)

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Re: American democracy died on Capitol Hill....

Post by Doc » Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:56 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:06 am
Doc wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:40 pm

The Weimar republic was basically a failed state driven into extreme poverty due the the post war revenge taken out on it. Well lets wait and see how far into extreme poverty by the wacko Democrats


You are right about the revenge part Doc but I believe you are barking up the wrong tree attributing it all to "extreme poverty".

The Weimar Republic never had a chance thanks top the myopia of the victors - especially that of the vengeful French. After the Kaiser fled to comfortable exile in the Netherlands the entire arostocratic order of imperial Germany folded. Into the political vacumn moved a coalition of poilitical parties including the social democrats. It was these who had to sign the onerous Versailles peace treaty that unjustly (in my opinion) placed the blame for World War One on Germany's shoulders.

Yes, there was widespread privation in Germany thanks to the cost of their war effort ( all of the former farmboys abscent in uniform at the war front caused food production to collapse and hunger to become widespread) and the cost of reparations demanded by the victors made things worse. However in addition to the economic dislocation was the insult of the unwilling acceptance of blame by Germany for the war written into the peace treaty - insult added to injury.

Bear in mind too that whereas the Allies had to fight basically on only one war front Germany and central allies had to fight two seperate wars on two fronts. Germany won handsomely on their easstern front with Russia before that country plunged into revolutionary upheaval. As a consequence of the (Brest Litovsk) prace treaty with the Bolsheviks Germay gained a considerable amount of ceded territiry along with handsome concessions like independence (under German suzerainty) for the Baltic states and Ukraine.

Yes, in the closing weeks of the war and with the help of new military tactics and hundreds of thousands of fresh American troops the Allies did take back a significent amount of territory in northern France from the occupying Germans but the salient fact was that by the time that Armistice (not a surrender but a mutually agreed to ceasefire) was declared there was not one single allied soldier anywhere on German soil but millions of Germans still In France and Belgium.

Try to ste things from the point of view of a typical German soldier returning home from the war front. Germany had won outright against Russia and essentially reached a stalemate situation in France and Belgium. To him it would likely have looked as though Germany had won WW1 "on points" - and now it was being treated as a defeated power.

Rumors of betrayal swilled within Weimar Germany just as they swearl within the USA now - and Weimar Germany did not even have :roll: either the internet or the equivalent of America's extreme right wing websites to sprerad enticing, lying propaganda electronically to the true believers.

The salient fact was that Germany had collapse within both economically and in social and domestic power structure and was therefore in no fit state to continue fighting. But that did not stop many millions of Germans from blaming the founders of the Weimar Republic for sellinjg Germany's interests short by signing the iniquitous Versailles treaty.


The legetimacy of the Weimar republic was never fully accepted by most Germans. Few Germans trusted either it or the political players involved.
..................................................................................................................................

Now, in the USA you likewise presently seem to have a scenario of widespread alienation from your system of government along with public mistrust of politics and politicans. Americans are at one anothers throats along partisan lines divided by hatred and incivility and it was exactly the same within Weimar Republic Germany.

Do you now see the "family resemblance" between the Weimar Republic of yore and the US Republic today?

(Sadly too, the USA did not even need to suffer a major military defeat to get into such a sad and sorry state either.)
You are probably right about the failed state part. I just couldn't think of a better term to use to describe inflation so bad that people literally had to have a wheel barrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread. In any event Germans thought it was the end of the world just the same.

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/479807 ... ely-follow
“We are born into this time and must bravely follow the path to the destined end. There is no other way. Our duty is to hold on to the lost position, without hope, without rescue, like that Roman soldier whose bones were found in front of a door in Pompeii, who, during the eruption of Vesuvius, died at his post because they forgot to relieve him. That is greatness. That is what it means to be a thoroughbred. The honorable end is the one thing that can not be taken from a man.”

― Oswald Spengler, Man and Technics: A Contribution to a Philosophy of Life
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Re: American democracy died on Capitol Hill....

Post by Doc » Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:56 pm

https://babylonbee.com/news/after-capit ... -letter-q/
After Capitol Riots, Sesame Street Pulls All Episodes Featuring The Letter 'Q'


NEW YORK, NY—Sesame Street announced today that they will drop all episodes featuring the letter “Q” as the "letter of the day." Producers of the show claim that teaching kids about the letter “Q” could lead them to believe in strange conspiracy theories, and it might even make them do things like storm the Capitol or even post strange memes on the internet.

The move to drop the letter “Q” comes after a crowd of angry protesters raided the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday, many of the protesters wearing the letter “Q” on their upper arm as a symbol of hate and violence.

“Sure, we want the children to be educated,” explained Sesame Street Writer Ken Scarborough. “but the letter ‘Q’ has become a dangerous letter. I mean, what if these kids grow up to be terrorists-- or worse, Trump supporters? We must stop the process of radicalization early!”

Sesame Street’s silencing of the letter “Q” echoes moves made by big tech companies such as Twitter, Facebook, and Google, who have all removed the letter “Q” to protect the public from any sort of insurrection that doesn’t come from the mostly-peaceful protesters of the left.

Sesame Street does have a history of cracking down on the letter “Q”: in early 2019 Grover joined Qanon after coming in contact with one of their Facebook posts. This led to several awkward segments in which Grover looked into the camera and explained the importance of Donald Trump’s presidency and how Democrats control the world and do all sorts of weird stuff "that a superhero cannot speak of in front of children.”

Grover has since been fired from the show and was last seen storming the Capitol last Wednesday.
https://babylonbee.com/news/after-capit ... -letter-q/
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Re: American democracy died on Capitol Hill....

Post by Doc » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:04 pm

“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Re: American democracy died on Capitol Hill....

Post by neverfail » Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:59 pm

Doc wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:56 am
You are probably right about the failed state part. I just couldn't think of a better term to use to describe inflation so bad that people literally had to have a wheel barrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread. In any event Germans thought it was the end of the world just the same.
The "great inflation" peaked in 1923. But there was another event that took place that year that I believe would have fuelled German resentment. This foreign intervention and its unforeseen consequences has not received anything like the publicity it deserves in Anglo-Saxon histories of the aftermath of WW1 and causes of the rise of Naziism and WW2.
https://alphahistory.com/weimarrepublic ... 20Republic.

In January 1923, French and Belgian troops crossed the border and took control of numerous places in Germany’s Ruhr Valley. The Ruhr occupation, as it became known, would last more than two and a half years and have a profound effect on both politics and the economy of the Weimar Republic.
This was not any broad Allied intervention in Germany: the WW1 French - British - US WW1 alliance had broken up soon after WW1 ended. This was a freelance French invasion of German territirity backed up by a lesser contribution by Belgium ( :lol: France supported by Belgium = Don Quixote followed by his sidekick Sancho Panca :) ), France, as the link explains, had accumulated a considerable war debt during WW1 and as far as possible was apparently determined to impose the cost-burden on Germany in the form of reparations. Given that the 1923 inflation spike would have reduced the purchasing power of German government income from taxation and government charges to virtually zilch the French were arguably demanding the impossible.

The inability of Germany in 1923 to fend off a foreign invadion like that would I imagine have caused even more Germans to lose confidence in their Weimar regime. It would have sowed in the German popular imagination a yearning for Germany to be restored as a strong military power so that such an indignity could never happen again. Guess who came along and promised just that?

Adolf Hitler, of course!
..................................................................................................................

The coming of the Nazis to power was postponed by several years because despite the best efforts of the French (and others) to keep Germany on its knees humuliated: from 1924 onward the German economy improved considerably and by 1928-29 the Germans were even beginning to enjoy a taste of unprecedented propserity. For the rest of the 1920's the appeal of extremist, revolutionary movements of the left and right, such as the Nazis and the Communists, waned while that of the moderate politicasl parties like the Christian Democrats and the Social democrats held steady commanding majority support. Had that trend continued on indefinitely very likely by the latter 1930's Germany would have settled down into being a stable, peaceful democracy - much like their post_WW2 Federal Republic since 1949-50: but that did not happen. For in 1929 along came the Great Depression and that was the final straw.

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Re: American democracy died on Capitol Hill....

Post by neverfail » Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:09 pm

Doc wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:04 pm
Jacob Chansley, the bozo wearing those buffalo horns and furs and with face painted during the Capital riot; you can just tell (can't you?) must have dressed that way for the Congress break-in as an attention-getting exercise to attract the focus of the TV cameras. Of course the video footage must have made it very easy for the authorities to subsequently track him down in order to press charges.

There is no fool like a fool who craves to be the star of the show.

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Re: American democracy died on Capitol Hill....

Post by Doc » Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:16 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:09 pm
Doc wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:04 pm
Jacob Chansley, the bozo wearing those buffalo horns and furs and with face painted during the Capital riot; you can just tell (can't you?) must have dressed that way for the Congress break-in as an attention-getting exercise to attract the focus of the TV cameras. Of course the video footage must have made it very easy for the authorities to subsequently track him down in order to press charges.

There is no fool like a fool who craves to be the star of the show.
I find it kind of baffling about the organic food. Why doesn't he just ask for soy milk?
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Re: American democracy died on Capitol Hill....

Post by Milo » Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:27 pm

The next ten days will be an excellent social science experiment. I expect the result will be that a huge slice the US population will prove to be completely uninterested in Trumpeting without the constant support of social media. Few, if any, will want to say in so many words though.

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