The Xi Silk Road is here to stay

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neverfail
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The Xi Silk Road is here to stay

Post by neverfail » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:55 am

http://www.atimes.com/article/xi-silk-road-stay/

(quote) The global economy’s captains of industry, old and new, have better shark fin to consume than to be constrained by the lowly Western Politician game of demonizing China. Turbo-capitalism – with or without “Chinese characteristics” – has absolutely nothing to do with Western liberal democracy. The Little Helmsman Deng Xiaoping introduced a real “third way”: economic proficiency coupled with political control. Deng, by the way, learned the ropes from Singapore strongman Lee Kuan Yew – a darling of the West.

:idea: Lee has much to answer for then.

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cassowary
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Re: The Xi Silk Road is here to stay

Post by cassowary » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:29 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:55 am
http://www.atimes.com/article/xi-silk-road-stay/

(quote) The global economy’s captains of industry, old and new, have better shark fin to consume than to be constrained by the lowly Western Politician game of demonizing China. Turbo-capitalism – with or without “Chinese characteristics” – has absolutely nothing to do with Western liberal democracy. The Little Helmsman Deng Xiaoping introduced a real “third way”: economic proficiency coupled with political control. Deng, by the way, learned the ropes from Singapore strongman Lee Kuan Yew – a darling of the West.

:idea: Lee has much to answer for then.
Yes. I mentioned this many times. I also tried to get the message out that the Chinese are debating whether democracy or dictatorship is better. If you western democracies like the US and some of the EU countries don't get their act together, the Chinese will conclude that dictatorship is better.

The US spent blood and treasure to defeat authoritarian governments since WWI. As a result, democracies increased after the fall of the Berlin Wall. But soon, China's GDP will be larger than the US. This means that the strongest military power will one day be a dictatorship. Very dangerous.

George H Bush missed a golden opportunity after TianAnMen incident. He should have pressured China into becoming a democracy. The Chinese then were receptive to the idea.

neverfail
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Re: The Xi Silk Road is here to stay

Post by neverfail » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:56 am

Thanks for reply Cass.

I had previously concluded that this discussion had "died" of neglect due to lack of interest.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: The Xi Silk Road is here to stay

Post by SteveFoerster » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:50 am

cassowary wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:29 pm
George H Bush missed a golden opportunity after TianAnMen incident. He should have pressured China into becoming a democracy. The Chinese then were receptive to the idea.
What, exactly, do you think he could have done?
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

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cassowary
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Re: The Xi Silk Road is here to stay

Post by cassowary » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:56 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:50 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:29 pm
George H Bush missed a golden opportunity after TianAnMen incident. He should have pressured China into becoming a democracy. The Chinese then were receptive to the idea.
What, exactly, do you think he could have done?
Trade sanctions would have sunk the CCP. China was weak at that time. Now China has grown to an 800-pound gorilla. The CCP was discredited at that time with Tiananmen incident on their minds. Chinese saw America as a role model. Remember the Goddes of Democracy statue erected in the square?

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Milo
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Re: The Xi Silk Road is here to stay

Post by Milo » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:24 pm

cassowary wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:56 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:50 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:29 pm
George H Bush missed a golden opportunity after TianAnMen incident. He should have pressured China into becoming a democracy. The Chinese then were receptive to the idea.
What, exactly, do you think he could have done?
Trade sanctions would have sunk the CCP. China was weak at that time. Now China has grown to an 800-pound gorilla. The CCP was discredited at that time with Tiananmen incident on their minds. Chinese saw America as a role model. Remember the Goddes of Democracy statue erected in the square?
Trade sanctions, against a regime that starved millions out of pure stubborn pride? I don't think so. China would have borne a very high price to stay a tyranny, as they do now.

You're wrong about what democracy is Cass and wrong about who is strong too. China is conning a lot of people and you're one of them.

neverfail
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Re: The Xi Silk Road is here to stay

Post by neverfail » Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:17 am

Milo wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:24 pm
cassowary wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:56 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:50 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:29 pm
George H Bush missed a golden opportunity after TianAnMen incident. He should have pressured China into becoming a democracy. The Chinese then were receptive to the idea.
What, exactly, do you think he could have done?
Trade sanctions would have sunk the CCP. China was weak at that time. Now China has grown to an 800-pound gorilla. The CCP was discredited at that time with Tiananmen incident on their minds. Chinese saw America as a role model. Remember the Goddes of Democracy statue erected in the square?
Trade sanctions, against a regime that starved millions out of pure stubborn pride? I don't think so. China would have borne a very high price to stay a tyranny, as they do now.

You're wrong about what democracy is Cass and wrong about who is strong too. China is conning a lot of people and you're one of them.
I agree with you that the CCP would have paid any price to remain in control. But is that party being selfish by so doing?

Contributors to this website, not least of all our esteemed Cassowary, cling to the myth that if you remove tyranny from any given foreign country then automatically (it goes without saying) the country becomes a democracy (then we all live happily ever after?). In light of all of the ex-tyrannies we have observed from afar in recent times that did not do so, I humbly suggest that this belief is nought but romantic, self-indulgent twaddle.

Though some of you might have to leave your comfort zones, think outside the box to do this; I challenge you to contemplate that the choice for some may not be between tyranny and multi-party democracy but between tyranny and utter socio-economic breakdown and violent political disorder.

The way that China, a multi-ethnic imperial state, has been built up over the centuries by a succession of dynasties I judge that it can only be governed in much the way that it currently is. In that regard the CCP is not being selfish but acting responsibly as the latest of a long line of stewards over this ancient land's destiny.

No Milo. I don't get the impression that China is conning anyone. The difference is that China now has strong leadership and a clear policy direction. Contrast this with the ill led, vacillating, floundering, clueless West.

China is on the rise whilst the West is on the wane. It is as simple as that. Get used to it!

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cassowary
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Re: The Xi Silk Road is here to stay

Post by cassowary » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:21 am

Milo wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:24 pm
cassowary wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:56 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:50 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:29 pm
George H Bush missed a golden opportunity after TianAnMen incident. He should have pressured China into becoming a democracy. The Chinese then were receptive to the idea.
What, exactly, do you think he could have done?
Trade sanctions would have sunk the CCP. China was weak at that time. Now China has grown to an 800-pound gorilla. The CCP was discredited at that time with Tiananmen incident on their minds. Chinese saw America as a role model. Remember the Goddes of Democracy statue erected in the square?
Trade sanctions, against a regime that starved millions out of pure stubborn pride? I don't think so. China would have borne a very high price to stay a tyranny, as they do now.

You're wrong about what democracy is Cass and wrong about who is strong too. China is conning a lot of people and you're one of them.
You are wrong, Milo. The time was ripe in 1989. Communist governments were collapsing. The students at Tiananmen wanted more democracy. China was poor and weak. Memories of the Cultural Revolution were fresh. The CCP was discredited as were the Russian and E European communist parties.

They saw the US as a role model to follow. That was why the students erected the Goddess of Democracy statue on Tiananmen, a clear reflection of the Statue of Liberty. Even some party members like Zhao Ziyang sympathized with the students. People of his generation, though senior party members lived through the earlier disaster, the Great Leap Forward which saw the deaths of 60 million Chinese.

The time was ripe for a revolution and the Tiananmen Square incident was the spark. But Bush did nothing to help. Deng Xiaoping was so afraid that their government would fall.

Today, China is richer. The CCP has gained in respect. Memories of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution have faded. America is no longer seen as a role model. Western democracies look increasingly dysfunctional. Chinese nationalism has replaced Communist dogma.

In a decades time, China will have the largest GDP and thus also have the most powerful military. It has been a long time since a dictatorship has the strongest military power. Newer democracies will be tempted to imitate China and go dictatorial. The advances made by democracy following the Fall of the Berlin Wall will be partially rolled back.

China will expand its borders just as it had in its imperial past. They have already taken Tibet years ago. It lays claim to the South China Sea which will reduce all of SE Asia and perhaps Australia into vassalage. Toe the line or your ships cannot pass through the S China Sea and your exports banned from the Chinese market.

neverfail
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Re: The Xi Silk Road is here to stay

Post by neverfail » Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:55 am

cassowary wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:21 am
They have already taken Tibet years ago.
When was Tibet anything other than part of China's sovereignty, Cass?

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SteveFoerster
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Re: The Xi Silk Road is here to stay

Post by SteveFoerster » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:05 am

neverfail wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:17 am
The way that China, a multi-ethnic imperial state, has been built up over the centuries by a succession of dynasties I judge that it can only be governed in much the way that it currently is. In that regard the CCP is not being selfish but acting responsibly as the latest of a long line of stewards over this ancient land's destiny.
If democracy were incompatible with Chinese culture, then Taiwan would be a basket case. But it isn't, instead it's developed faster than the mainland.
neverfail wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:17 am
No Milo. I don't get the impression that China is conning anyone. The difference is that China now has strong leadership and a clear policy direction. Contrast this with the ill led, vacillating, floundering, clueless West.
One of the strengths of China's system in the last few decades has been term limits for the top spot. Now that Xi is President-for-life, that strength has been removed. I'm not saying Xi is exceptionally bad or anything, but when any top person stays too long, there's a tendency to control more and more things directly in a way that isn't conducive to the flexibility and growth that we've come to associate with Chinese governance.
neverfail wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:17 am
China is on the rise whilst the West is on the wane. It is as simple as that. Get used to it!
Perhaps! But conversely, beware of belief that a particular country's fortunes can only go up and never down. After all, that's what they said about Japan in the 1980's.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

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