Bitcoin and crypto currencies

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Bitcoin and crypto currencies

Post by SteveFoerster » Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:54 am

DavAdmin wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:18 pm
Correct, 80% of Bitcoin mining is done in Chinese mega-factories now. Apparently to produce one Bitcoin uses the same amount of electricity as an average US household gets through in a week.
I'm actually surprised it's that little.
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lzzrdgrrl
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Re: Bitcoin and crypto currencies

Post by lzzrdgrrl » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:55 pm

This Nobel Prize-Winning Economist Says Bitcoin Should Be Banned
In particular, he noted that the value of bitcoin today is derived from the “expectation of what it will be tomorrow.” This unpredictability, combined with the possibility that government could “clamp down” on it at any moment, led Stiglitz to argue that bitcoin could collapse. His prediction has already showed signs of truth, as bitcoin plunged 20% just hours after breaking its all-time record on Wednesday.
http://start.att.net/news/read/article/ ... ry/finance

Interviewer Tom Keene gets the clickbait nomination for saying that Bitcoin operates on a mid-level Marxist assumption of value..... think bubble, think tulip bulbs in Amsterdam, for instance.....'>......
Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz said “bitcoin is successful only because of its potential for circumvention, lack of oversight.”
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... s-jal10hxd
Let's try this modelling exercise. Let's envision a world in a parallel universe somewhere let's say, where I'm right.........

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DavAdmin
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Re: Bitcoin and crypto currencies

Post by DavAdmin » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:45 pm

Yep those bankers that have made millions off other people's money are all too quick to bash Bitcoin, it threatens their business model:
http://www.newsbtc.com/2017/12/01/big-b ... h-bitcoin/


So much for the 'crash', just looked like a very small market correction, all up again today.

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Re: Bitcoin and crypto currencies

Post by SteveFoerster » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:46 pm

If you really want to make money, forget bitcoin, and just invest the opposite way from whatever Stiglitz is currently saying. There are very few people who are so consistently wrong about so much, his winning the Nobel for economics was akin to giving the peace prize to Henry Kissinger.
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lzzrdgrrl
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Re: Bitcoin and crypto currencies

Post by lzzrdgrrl » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:14 pm

DavAdmin wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:45 pm
Yep those bankers that have made millions off other people's money are all too quick to bash Bitcoin, it threatens their business model:
http://www.newsbtc.com/2017/12/01/big-b ... h-bitcoin/


So much for the 'crash', just looked like a very small market correction, all up again today.
You can be quite the contrarian when you have the global currencies behind you.......
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:46 pm
If you really want to make money, forget bitcoin, and just invest the opposite way from whatever Stiglitz is currently saying. There are very few people who are so consistently wrong about so much, his winning the Nobel for economics was akin to giving the peace prize to Henry Kissinger.
I do get that impression. The Nobel, like a lodestone, points in a reference direction, You note the reference then you plan your own path.....;>......
Let's try this modelling exercise. Let's envision a world in a parallel universe somewhere let's say, where I'm right.........

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Milo
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Re: Bitcoin and crypto currencies

Post by Milo » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:42 pm

And there goes the neighbourhood!

Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro has announced the creation of a new virtual currency in a bid to ease the country's economic crisis.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-42217798

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Bitcoin and crypto currencies

Post by SteveFoerster » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:30 am

Milo wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:42 pm
And there goes the neighbourhood!

Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro has announced the creation of a new virtual currency in a bid to ease the country's economic crisis.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-42217798
Yes, that was my laugh for the morning. It will fail just as miserably as everything else Mierduro touches.
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Doc
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Re: Bitcoin and crypto currencies

Post by Doc » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:00 pm

DavAdmin wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:27 pm
Very true - though it looks like its heading there, this site gives a good roundup of all prices:
https://www.worldcoinindex.com/

Bitcoin Cash seems to be the winning horse at the moment, for no logical reason that I can see. Any ideas why?
Exuberance perhaps. It didn't hurt that Julian Assange indirectly endorsed bitcoin a couple of weeks ago.

I figure it works like most other markets. The internet for example in the late 90's. Internet company stock went up and up. The price got pretty high. AS they got higher more and more people thought it must all be lgitimate. Then NY accountants started moving to SIlicon valley to take jobs with those companies. Once there they discovered that there wasn't much there there. IE most of the companies did not have sound finances and no hope of ever having them. The accountants told their friends back in NY and the internet bubble burst. There was a massive extinction of such
companies and teh ones that were left grew stronger. They then settled in (Mostly) with solid growth or got bought out by others that did.

Investments unlike grass are not always greener. There has been a shortage of investments for quite some time that meet the expectations of investors. SO people tend to play instead of invest.

I don't know much about bitcoin but if article on the cost of mining them is true, eventually Bitcoin will settle into a price that is something higher than the cost of mining them. Electric generating companies may start using their excess electricity production to mine bit coins instead of sending it into the ground. At that point it will probably be a stable currency. As it would be directly proportional to the supply of energy. But you can't eat it. You can't make a fire with it. You can't wear it as bling. And given its anonymous nature governments would have a difficult time taxing it directly.

So in the long run it might be highly destabilizing of the entire world economy. I'll have to think about that more. So I guess I will have to mine more knowledge about Bitcoin.

Prediction: In the future someone will legally change their name to KimBitCoin
The classes and the races to weak to master the new conditions of life must give way {..} They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust --Karl Marx

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DavAdmin
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Re: Bitcoin and crypto currencies

Post by DavAdmin » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:46 pm

Bitcoin is just the daddy of hundreds of smaller blockchain assets that have emerged this year called 'altcoins' - many have solid tech and concepts for the future. Of course decentralization is the key and that is the attraction at the moment for early adopters who are tired of being controlled by governments and financial institutions.

This one based in Southeast Asia is very interesting:
http://ethereumworldnews.com/omise-gets-go/

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Doc
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Re: Bitcoin and crypto currencies

Post by Doc » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:31 pm

DavAdmin wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:46 pm
Bitcoin is just the daddy of hundreds of smaller blockchain assets that have emerged this year called 'altcoins' - many have solid tech and concepts for the future. Of course decentralization is the key and that is the attraction at the moment for early adopters who are tired of being controlled by governments and financial institutions.

This one based in Southeast Asia is very interesting:
http://ethereumworldnews.com/omise-gets-go/
I watched the documentary "Banking on Bitcoin" last night. The units the numbers are in are quite a bit fuzzy to me so please think of what I am saying here as speculation at least in part.

Do the transaction validation server owners still get paid by working out a large number crunch first? Isn't that the same thing as paying a fee to a bank ? From the doc I get the idea that a new bitcoin is mined every ten minutes. That I take it means that the electricity used is the average electricity used by all of the validating machines over a period of 10 minutes(?). While there are enough possible bitcoins to mine new ones until 2140 what happens when there can be no more mine? Without the transaction validation does that mean the bitcoins will then be worthless (as no one would be willing to do the validation without a payout.)?

And the money laundering part. If Bitcoin does get widely accepted the only way to stop money laundering that I see would be to invalidate bitcoin chains that are found to be in effect money laundering. This can be done since the bitcoins themselves have a record built into them as to how they changed hands even if the identity of any given owner cannot be easy determined the bitcoins would in effect have "Blood" on them. So government swoops in and invalidates specific chains. Leaving the person holding them at that time in jeopardy of having a zip drive of worthless electronics.

But assuming the electricity consumption for a family in the US is ~ $25 per week that would seem to imply if a bitcoin is valued at $5000 the payoff is 25 times the value of the energy expended per each bitcoin mined. That payoff would fall as more machines were validating transactions. But the more validating machines the faster the validations would work.

On the other hand I suspect Bitcoin could be an economist's wet dream In the future I would except to see a bumper sticker that says something like Economists do it with blocks and chains. Meaning that the payoff for mining bitcoin could quite possibly be manipulated to have nearly zero Inflation/Deflation of the value of a Bitcoin. Or any other targeted acceleration/deceleration of value.

Like I said the parameters are very fuzzy to me, but my sense is those parameters on the macroscopic scale (Disregarding the complexities of the coding and cryptology underneath) are very finite. For example Is the price of the electricity used based on usages and electric rates in the US? China? Africa? Is the payoff/to electricity used ratio of the mined bitcoin an average payout spread across all machines doing the validations? Or is it for the machine getting the payout?

Anyway I need to think about this some more.
The classes and the races to weak to master the new conditions of life must give way {..} They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust --Karl Marx

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