American Shithole

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lzzrdgrrl
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Re: American Shithole

Post by lzzrdgrrl » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:08 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:51 pm
lzzrdgrrl wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:57 pm
The scale and substance of the American enterprise is so vast, even a small aspect of it comprises a number so large it beggars the imagination. Useless people talk and have opinions; they eat and excrete waste, they break things and get in the way and the American Enterprise will just go its course. Inexorable and uncorrectable, it will arrive at the destiny fate chooses and no one weenish upset or another will make it any different........
You make the "American enterprise" sound like a rudderless ship IZZY.

Are you aware that a rudderless ship, especially one of the colossal size of the US, is a dire navigation hazard to all other vessels afloat on the water?
I would hope the Ship of State is charted to course, but there's a reason why I have this flotation vest styled to look something fashionable and chic......;>..........
I have a certain notoriety among the lesser gods........

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Doc
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Re: America First?

Post by Doc » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:59 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:41 pm
America first - Trump's quintessential campaign slogan.

With hindsight, I am still amazed that he was able to get away with using this electioneering catchphrase unchallenged. I cannot recall a single US president during my lifetime who was opposed to the US national interest.
That is about to end.

“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” … George Orwell

neverfail
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Re: American Shithole

Post by neverfail » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:17 am

lzzrdgrrl wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:08 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:51 pm
lzzrdgrrl wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:57 pm
The scale and substance of the American enterprise is so vast, even a small aspect of it comprises a number so large it beggars the imagination. Useless people talk and have opinions; they eat and excrete waste, they break things and get in the way and the American Enterprise will just go its course. Inexorable and uncorrectable, it will arrive at the destiny fate chooses and no one weenish upset or another will make it any different........
You make the "American enterprise" sound like a rudderless ship IZZY.

Are you aware that a rudderless ship, especially one of the colossal size of the US, is a dire navigation hazard to all other vessels afloat on the water?
I would hope the Ship of State is charted to course, but there's a reason why I have this flotation vest styled to look something fashionable and chic......;>..........
:lol: :lol: :lol: Love it!...

...but where would you swim to?

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SteveFoerster
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Re: American Shithole

Post by SteveFoerster » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:24 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:12 am
neverfail wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:57 pm
***k Detroit!

By Trump's definition, my wife's home country, The Philippines, would probably qualify as one of his "shithouse" republics. But allow me to assure him that my country has been blessed with tens of thousands of quite splendid immigrant-settlers from there. I even have three of them in my house right now!
To be fair to Trump, he did not define what he meant by "shithouse". I don't consider the Phillippines to be a shithouse.
Trump said "shithole", not "shithouse", although either way it's crystal clear he didn't mean it as a compliment.
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:12 am
The shithouse of SE Asia is Malaysia where institutional discrimination against minority religions and ethnic groups are acceptable to the majority group.

People like that should not be allowed to migrate to non-Muslim countries. Why admit people who don't like you?
The problem with this sort of collectivist thinking is that by treating all Malaysians as interchangeable you're including those Malaysians who would prefer to emigrate precisely because they agree with you.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

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cassowary
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Re: American Shithole

Post by cassowary » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:47 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:24 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:12 am
neverfail wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:57 pm
***k Detroit!

By Trump's definition, my wife's home country, The Philippines, would probably qualify as one of his "shithouse" republics. But allow me to assure him that my country has been blessed with tens of thousands of quite splendid immigrant-settlers from there. I even have three of them in my house right now!
To be fair to Trump, he did not define what he meant by "shithouse". I don't consider the Phillippines to be a shithouse.
Trump said "shithole", not "shithouse", although either way it's crystal clear he didn't mean it as a compliment.
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:12 am
The shithouse of SE Asia is Malaysia where institutional discrimination against minority religions and ethnic groups are acceptable to the majority group.

People like that should not be allowed to migrate to non-Muslim countries. Why admit people who don't like you?
The problem with this sort of collectivist thinking is that by treating all Malaysians as interchangeable you're including those Malaysians who would prefer to emigrate precisely because they agree with you.
I know. But we got to play the odds. Suppose, one out of a thousand Muslim Malaysians are OK and can assimilate into a non-Muslim community. Do we put up with 999 bad ones just to do right for one guy? I don't think that is a good idea. What about 1 in 100? I still think it is a bad idea. One in 10? Still a bad idea. One in 3? Nope. Not good enough for me.

By the way, those who prefer to migrate are the Chinese and Indians who want to escape discrimination.

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cassowary
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Re: American Shithole

Post by cassowary » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:40 am

neverfail wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:10 pm
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:12 am

To be fair to Trump, he did not define what he meant by "shithouse". I don't consider the Phillippines to be a shithouse.
Thanks Cass; I am relieved to know that you don't. But what you think of it does not matter too much as you are not the US president. What does Trump think of the Philippines?
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:12 am
The shithouse of SE Asia is Malaysia where institutional discrimination against minority religions and ethnic groups are acceptable to the majority group.
Well, at least they seem to be doing it peacefully Cass. They tax Chinese and squeeze out Indians but that seems to be as far as they go. So if I were Straits Chinese I might be inclined to count my blessings - small though these might appear.

At least in Malaysia they have so far abstained from subjecting the local Chinese and Indians from the wholesale violent, genocidal, ethnic cleansing that the Burmese military, apparently supported by (Buddhist) Burmese opinion and mob violence, have subjected their Rohingya minority to. Or do you apply the double standard that Rohingya are fair game because they are Muslims while Malaysian Chinese are off-limits because they are not?
To be fair to the Burmese (I prefer the old fashion term to "Myamese"), you must understand their fear of Islam. They are aware tihat Buddhism in India and Afghanistan were destroyed by Muslim invaders in the 10th to the 13th centuries. Nalanda, the last great Buddhist stronghold, was destroyed at the beginning of the 13th century.

Nalanda's Buddhist monasteries and its great library were destroyed, ending Buddhism in India, its birthplace. The recent destruction of the Bamiyan Buddha statue in Afghanistan was a sacrilege to the Burmese who are devout Buddhists. It also revived ancient fears of the Muslims.

The ideology that motivated the destruction of Nalenda centuries ago are still alive today among some Muslims. A percentage of Muslims believe it is their duty to hate and subjugate non-Muslims and even kill them. Their beliefs are based on the behavior of Islam's founder, Prophet Mohammed. ISIS and the Taliban were only imitating him. For the devout, Burmese, recent behavior of extremist Muslims aroused their ancient fears and hatreds.

You should also be aware that there are Christian tribes in Burma (I mean Myanmar) such as the Kachin, Chin and Kayin. According to Wikipedia, 6.2% of the Burmese population are Christians. This is more than the Muslims. But they are not being driven out like the Rohingyas, although there have been reports of discrimination by the majority Buddhists.

cassowary wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:12 am
People like that should not be allowed to migrate to non-Muslim countries. Why admit people who don't like you?
People change as they respond to the challenges of living in their adopted country.

Cass, we have been admitting New Zealanders to this country since as far back as I can recall and a lot of these dislike us motivated, as far as I can see, by nothing but a sense of envy towards this country for its greater good fortune. Yet it does not stop the same people from harbouring a strong sense of entitlement about their right to migrate here (a double standard of narcissists). Yet I have met Kiwis long resident here who have humbly admitted to me that back in their home country we got Australia wrong!.
My friend, Neverfail. Surely, you cannot be so dumb. The Kiwis are Christian, speak English and white like most Australians. With so many things in common, it is of course very easy to assimilate them. From a practical point of view, it is best to favor those who are most like you to migrate to your country. But that would be discrimination.

Somewhere in between zero discrimination and thus allowing those who hate your culture and religion to come in and a white Australia policy, there must be a happy medium.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: American Shithole

Post by SteveFoerster » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:38 am

cassowary wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:40 am
To be fair to the Burmese (I prefer the old fashion term to "Myamese"), you must understand their fear of Islam.
Nothing you said justifies genocide. Doubly so when you're talking about what long-dead people did back in the middle ages.
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Doc
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Re: American Shithole

Post by Doc » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:14 pm

Click to read the whole thing

Tricky Dicky Durbin

“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” … George Orwell

neverfail
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Re: American Shithole

Post by neverfail » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:40 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:10 pm
At least in Malaysia they have so far abstained from subjecting the local Chinese and Indians from the wholesale violent, genocidal, ethnic cleansing that the Burmese military, apparently supported by (Buddhist) Burmese opinion and mob violence, have subjected their Rohingya minority to. Or do you apply the double standard that Rohingya are fair game because they are Muslims while Malaysian Chinese are off-limits because they are not?
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:12 am
To be fair to the Burmese (I prefer the old fashion term to "Myamese"), you must understand their fear of Islam. They are aware that Buddhism in India and Afghanistan were destroyed by Muslim invaders in the 10th to the 13th centuries. Nalanda, the last great Buddhist stronghold, was destroyed at the beginning of the 13th century.
Cass; please stop tarring all Muslims with the same brush. That is the moral equivalent of the Ku Klux Klan regarding all black men as goddamned niggers.

I doubt very much whether the Burmese soldier/thugs or the inflamed Burmese mob would know or care less about what now long dead Islamic invaders did in India and Afghanistan centuries ago. As for the more historically recent desecration of that gigantic statue of the Buddha in Afghanistan - in what way are poor hapless, helpless Rohingya of Myanmar to blame for that?

Fact: that statue had survived for many centuries intact in the midst of an entirely Muslim population in the part of Afghanistan where it is located. It was destroyed by the Taliban whose majority membership are Pashtun. It might not cut any ice with you to know that the local Muslims are Shias and ethnic Hazara whilst the Pashtuns are sunni. I would not be surprised to learn (given the long tradition of Pashtun hatred for the Hazara) if the Taliban did it out of spite for the Hazara with the stated Islamic dogma being their excuse for doing it rather than the real reason.

So Cass, the excuse you are offering for the infamous behaviour of the Burmese towards the Rohingya does not wash with me. Steve Foerster is right: there is no excuse for attempted genocide.

You have also failed to acknowledge that discrimination against non-Malays and non-Muslims in Malaysia, whilst no doubt reprehensible and burdensome for the targeted victims to live with, still does not constitute a genocidal pogrom against them - except for the acknowledgement endemic in by your silence on this matter.

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cassowary
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Re: American Shithole

Post by cassowary » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:03 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:40 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:10 pm
At least in Malaysia they have so far abstained from subjecting the local Chinese and Indians from the wholesale violent, genocidal, ethnic cleansing that the Burmese military, apparently supported by (Buddhist) Burmese opinion and mob violence, have subjected their Rohingya minority to. Or do you apply the double standard that Rohingya are fair game because they are Muslims while Malaysian Chinese are off-limits because they are not?
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:12 am
To be fair to the Burmese (I prefer the old fashion term to "Myamese"), you must understand their fear of Islam. They are aware that Buddhism in India and Afghanistan were destroyed by Muslim invaders in the 10th to the 13th centuries. Nalanda, the last great Buddhist stronghold, was destroyed at the beginning of the 13th century.
Cass; please stop tarring all Muslims with the same brush. That is the moral equivalent of the Ku Klux Klan regarding all black men as goddamned niggers.

I doubt very much whether the Burmese soldier/thugs or the inflamed Burmese mob would know or care less about what now long dead Islamic invaders did in India and Afghanistan centuries ago. As for the more historically recent desecration of that gigantic statue of the Buddha in Afghanistan - in what way are poor hapless, helpless Rohingya of Myanmar to blame for that?

Fact: that statue had survived for many centuries intact in the midst of an entirely Muslim population in the part of Afghanistan where it is located. It was destroyed by the Taliban whose majority membership are Pashtun. It might not cut any ice with you to know that the local Muslims are Shias and ethnic Hazara whilst the Pashtuns are sunni. I would not be surprised to learn (given the long tradition of Pashtun hatred for the Hazara) if the Taliban did it out of spite for the Hazara with the stated Islamic dogma being their excuse for doing it rather than the real reason.

So Cass, the excuse you are offering for the infamous behaviour of the Burmese towards the Rohingya does not wash with me. Steve Foerster is right: there is no excuse for attempted genocide.
Neverfail and Steve. I was not trying to justify genocide but merely to explain how the hatred got started. You don't burn villages and drive people out of Burma without feeling what you have been doing is justified. Nobody wakes up in the morning thinking, "What evil am I going to do today?" The worst evils committed by people were always justified in their eyes. Osama bin Laden did not commit genocide on 911 thinking he was evil. No, he believed he was a good guy and what he did was justified - same as the Burmese people.

The Burmese think that Muslims are a danger to them. That's why they did it. You may not agree with their thinking but that is how they feel.
You have also failed to acknowledge that discrimination against non-Malays and non-Muslims in Malaysia, whilst no doubt reprehensible and burdensome for the targeted victims to live with, still does not constitute a genocidal pogrom against them - except for the acknowledgement endemic in by your silence on this matter.
Well, it is obvious that the Muslims in Malaysia are not driving non-MUslims out or killing them. That's why I did not mention it. You also did not acknowledge that the Burmese are not driving out the Christian tribes despite the fact that they are a larger group than Muslims. It shows that they do not perceive Christians to be a danger to them.

I brought that up to show you that the hatred that the Burmese have for the Muslims is not directed against all non-Buddhists. So this means it is not intrinsic in Buddhism to hate all non-Buddhists as it is in Islam for all unbelievers. This proves that the hatred is caused by Muslim behavior both past and present. Is your silence also an acknowledgment?

I think it is very hard for you to understand the fear and loathing of Islam that it inspires in parts of the world that have the long interaction with it, the last warrior religion.

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