The end of Work (?)

High Culture, Religion, Philosophy and Esoterica.
Doc
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Re: The end of Work (?)

Post by Doc » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:00 pm

Hockey Dad wrote:
Milo wrote:
Hockey Dad wrote:
Doc wrote: .... But the humans will have little to no money to pay for it. Given that, robot rock would be the most market/cost efficient product. Robsicians work cheap, can play concerts 24 hours a day and not get tired. Plus they can play the music with mechanical perfection every time. Just put some vacuum tubes in them, and I bet they sound just like in the days.


The humans will have little or no money, but they will be surrounded by perfect tech-replications of human activity, and the humans will like it, prefer it.

Where to begin, showing the flaws in this dystopian fantasizing?

With that Alison Krauss film (I prefer film to 'video' because it's so excellently produced, by humans, using tons of technology), let's start.

As your robots mercilessly start replacing elements in this film, one of the first cast members to get replaced is Alison Krauss' hairdresser.

So Alison shows up on the appointed day for makeup and hair; the robot (programmed with superhuman hairdressing knowledge) does a super job, perfectly rendering her hair, and makeup. It also was programmed to chat engagingly and interact warmly during the hairdressing session, so Alison is kept happy. Then the costume robot, which also has the role of set-designer robot, gives Alison her choice of robot-designed and produced clothes, and she is shown to the set - where the carpeting and background furniture is entirely designed and produced by another robot which has perfectly replaced the gay Hollywood set-designer.

This doesn't sound ridiculous in the least, does it.....

:roll:
It won't happen all at once. Virtually every musician is using auto-tune or a variant of it. Their videos are visually doctored as well. As time passes the artists will be slowly eroded until there's no human left. Many people will say they don't like the trend but it is inexorable.
It is neither inevitable as you say repeatedly, nor inexorable.

You're choosing to ignore and making unwarranted assumptions about the adopters, the audience, the humans.

It's a bit peculiar, you seem to think they'll have no choice, though you yourself seem to dislike it fervently.

Inevitable ? Was there ever a time when Walmart was inevitable given its importation of more products from China than the GDP of a large number of coutries in the world? Productivity in the US has been going down or been flat depending on who you ask for many years now. The new automation has the potential to be much more productive. Paying a human $50k per year VS buying a robot for $50k. The first time a company in a given industry successfully implements the automation every other company in that industry will be forced to implement it or go out of business. Some may be able to put it off a few years by moving their operation overseas to cheaper labor markets But that will not last long.
The classes and the races to weak to master the new conditions of life must give way {..} They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust --Karl Marx

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Milo
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Re: The end of Work (?)

Post by Milo » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:23 pm

Hockey Dad wrote:
Milo wrote:
Hockey Dad wrote:
Doc wrote: .... But the humans will have little to no money to pay for it. Given that, robot rock would be the most market/cost efficient product. Robsicians work cheap, can play concerts 24 hours a day and not get tired. Plus they can play the music with mechanical perfection every time. Just put some vacuum tubes in them, and I bet they sound just like in the days.


The humans will have little or no money, but they will be surrounded by perfect tech-replications of human activity, and the humans will like it, prefer it.

Where to begin, showing the flaws in this dystopian fantasizing?

With that Alison Krauss film (I prefer film to 'video' because it's so excellently produced, by humans, using tons of technology), let's start.

As your robots mercilessly start replacing elements in this film, one of the first cast members to get replaced is Alison Krauss' hairdresser.

So Alison shows up on the appointed day for makeup and hair; the robot (programmed with superhuman hairdressing knowledge) does a super job, perfectly rendering her hair, and makeup. It also was programmed to chat engagingly and interact warmly during the hairdressing session, so Alison is kept happy. Then the costume robot, which also has the role of set-designer robot, gives Alison her choice of robot-designed and produced clothes, and she is shown to the set - where the carpeting and background furniture is entirely designed and produced by another robot which has perfectly replaced the gay Hollywood set-designer.

This doesn't sound ridiculous in the least, does it.....

:roll:
It won't happen all at once. Virtually every musician is using auto-tune or a variant of it. Their videos are visually doctored as well. As time passes the artists will be slowly eroded until there's no human left. Many people will say they don't like the trend but it is inexorable.
It is neither inevitable as you say repeatedly, nor inexorable.

You're choosing to ignore and making unwarranted assumptions about the adopters, the audience, the humans.

It's a bit peculiar, you seem to think they'll have no choice, though you yourself seem to dislike it fervently.
I don't dislike it, I like Laphroaig too; that doesn't mean it's without undesirable side effects.

The video you posted has over 4 million views.

Taylor Swift's considerably more artificial "Blank Space" has over 1.8 BILLION.

https://youtu.be/e-ORhEE9VVg

You prove my point.

People just aren't that special. Get over it.

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Hockey Dad
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Re: The end of Work (?)

Post by Hockey Dad » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:24 pm

^^^

So you post a video that has nothing to do with your line of argument

and then (not for the first time) fatuously claim 'you proved my point'.

:lol:

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Milo
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Re: The end of Work (?)

Post by Milo » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:40 pm

Hockey Dad wrote:^^^

So you post a video that has nothing to do with your line of argument

and then (not for the first time) fatuously claim 'you proved my point'.

:lol:
I have not represented myself properly if you think I have one line of argument.

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Hocketing Dad
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Re: The end of Work (?)

Post by Hocketing Dad » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:46 pm

...

Here's something... really disturbing.

Martin Scorsese’s The Irishman to digitally de-age Robert De Niro


Between Peter Cushing’s return in Rogue One and the arrival of young Anthony Hopkins in Westworld, 2016 has seen some interesting and controversial use of CGI.

It looks like Robert De Niro will be the next A-lister to be replicated/altered on screen, when he re-teams with Martin Scorsese for new mob film The Irishman.

De Niro will play the titular irishman, a real-life hitman called Frank Sheeran who murdered 25 people and claimed to have been involved with union leader Jimmy Hoffa’s disappearance in 1975.

To portray his younger years, they won’t be going down the different actor or prosthetics route.

“You don’t use prosthetics, make-up; they have acting and the technology is able to have them go through different time ages without the prosthetics,” producer Gaston Pavlovich told CinemaBlend.

“So we’ve seen some tests and it looks extraordinary. We were able to film Bob and just do a scene. We saw it come down to when he was like 20, 40, 60, so we’re looking forward to that, from that point of view, for The Irishman.

..... Seeing De Niro back in his Taxi Driver-era prime will indeed be cool, but something about the whole CGI de-ageing process unsettles me a little - hopefully it’ll be used sparingly in the film.

LINK
I've never liked that guy, and he's looked like shit for many years, but some idiot now expects to sell tickets by altering his ugly mug and prolonging his career.

Sure makes you hope they don't find the fountain of youth.

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lzzrdgrrl
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Re: The end of Work (?)

Post by lzzrdgrrl » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:41 pm

There's no end of work. So long as poor life choices meet limited resources and consequences not thought through, there will always be a need for someone to untie that knot. Social services work is too resource poor to ever justify the capital expenses for automation......'>......
Let's try this modelling exercise. Let's envision a world in a parallel universe somewhere let's say, where I'm right.........

Doc
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Re: The end of Work (?)

Post by Doc » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:11 pm

lzzrdgrrl wrote:There's no end of work. So long as poor life choices meet limited resources and consequences not thought through, there will always be a need for someone to untie that knot. Social services work is too resource poor to ever justify the capital expenses for automation......'>......

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... olete.html

https://robotanthropology.wordpress.com ... l-workers/


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... owner.html
The classes and the races to weak to master the new conditions of life must give way {..} They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust --Karl Marx

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dagbay
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Re: The end of Work (?)

Post by dagbay » Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:47 am

I was intrigued after reading most of the comments above. I remembered Asimov's Robots series of stories and the Time Machine HGW's novel both portray as many predictions posted here that someday humanity will build such a marvel of technology that will be able to sustain all the demands of humanity in all respects. Furthermore it will be able to maintain itself and autonomously improve itself without any outside intervention - And then what?

First IMHO those days are at least many hundreds of years away. As a technology professional I am quite aware of the state of technology and the current pipeline. Yes, for the foreseeable future humans will do less and less tasks that are involved in producing and replicating goods, that certainly seems to be the trend. It is clear that humans will change too, with physical aids (biological or artificial) at first for the infirm and later as add-on choices. Human life itself would change extended and unleashed. It is of course assumed that most if not all of humanity will attain this graduate level at some distant point in time. So when this process proceeds to its limit the distinction between man and machine would be blurred enough to make the concept of labor irrelevant.

If human curiosity is preserved than at least one task will remain. As of now we know that there is a lot more that we do not know than the same understanding of any human generation that came before us. This trend is actually equally consistent as the trend of diminishing of human labor. It is reasonable to assume that the quest will be far longer than we can foresee as the goal of the complete understanding of nature keeps getting further. So at least in that respect there will be always something for humans/machines to do, perhaps the limiting factor to this quest would be energy.

Notwithstanding all that, we must be supposing that humanity will not create some doomsday scenario that will wipe itself out or retard itself to the caveman era.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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lzzrdgrrl
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Re: The end of Work (?)

Post by lzzrdgrrl » Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:47 am

Doc wrote:
lzzrdgrrl wrote:There's no end of work. So long as poor life choices meet limited resources and consequences not thought through, there will always be a need for someone to untie that knot. Social services work is too resource poor to ever justify the capital expenses for automation......'>......

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... olete.html

https://robotanthropology.wordpress.com ... l-workers/


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... owner.html
I'm thinking of the general demographic i'm working with. They're not in the economic strata to be early adaptors of advanced AI technology. They (along with I) have an intense allergy for this sort of thing and with the whole SS system about to turn turtle, this is not a revenue stream to be driving advances in AI technology.......

From a rather more serious consideration, work isn't primarily an economic activity. It's an emanation of human being in social interaction and community building. People aren't only thinkers, they are thinkers and actors. Cutting the legs out from under an economy because bots can do it on cheaper coin is like cutting the legs off a frog and then when it doesn't jump on command, blaming it on going deaf........
dagbay wrote:If human curiosity is preserved than at least one task will remain. As of now we know that there is a lot more that we do not know than the same understanding of any human generation that came before us. This trend is actually equally consistent as the trend of diminishing of human labor. It is reasonable to assume that the quest will be far longer than we can foresee as the goal of the complete understanding of nature keeps getting further. So at least in that respect there will be always something for humans/machines to do, perhaps the limiting factor to this quest would be energy.
The limiting factor, at least for human beings is their limitations and their vulnerabilities. This is not even a technological problem so much as an existential one. Humans decide as much as learn or discover what they are, what they should do, who they should be and how they should affect all of this. Also....... our primary problem and the curse of the modern age, is not that we lack information but that we lack honesty and insight. That includes accepting some rather dark and ugly truths about ourselves including that some of our best motives are poisoned. Needless to say this won't be easy........
Let's try this modelling exercise. Let's envision a world in a parallel universe somewhere let's say, where I'm right.........

Doc
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: The end of Work (?)

Post by Doc » Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:03 am

dagbay wrote:I was intrigued after reading most of the comments above. I remembered Asimov's Robots series of stories and the Time Machine HGW's novel both portray as many predictions posted here that someday humanity will build such a marvel of technology that will be able to sustain all the demands of humanity in all respects. Furthermore it will be able to maintain itself and autonomously improve itself without any outside intervention - And then what?

First IMHO those days are at least many hundreds of years away. As a technology professional I am quite aware of the state of technology and the current pipeline. Yes, for the foreseeable future humans will do less and less tasks that are involved in producing and replicating goods, that certainly seems to be the trend. It is clear that humans will change too, with physical aids (biological or artificial) at first for the infirm and later as add-on choices. Human life itself would change extended and unleashed. It is of course assumed that most if not all of humanity will attain this graduate level at some distant point in time. So when this process proceeds to its limit the distinction between man and machine would be blurred enough to make the concept of labor irrelevant.
Until the human part withers away.

[/quote]If human curiosity is preserved than at least one task will remain. As of now we know that there is a lot more that we do not know than the same understanding of any human generation that came before us. This trend is actually equally consistent as the trend of diminishing of human labor. It is reasonable to assume that the quest will be far longer than we can foresee as the goal of the complete understanding of nature keeps getting further. So at least in that respect there will be always something for humans/machines to do, perhaps the limiting factor to this quest would be energy.

Notwithstanding all that, we must be supposing that humanity will not create some doomsday scenario that will wipe itself out or retard itself to the caveman era.[/quote]

For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. Of course there is always an amount of hysteresis between the two.
The classes and the races to weak to master the new conditions of life must give way {..} They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust
--Karl Marx
The classes and the races to weak to master the new conditions of life must give way {..} They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust --Karl Marx

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