Does Shiraz wine come from Iran ?

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Cyclamen persicum
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Does Shiraz wine come from Iran ?

Post by Cyclamen persicum » Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:43 pm

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neverfail
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Re: Does Shiraz wine come from Iran ?

Post by neverfail » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:10 pm

CP: I would not be surprised if it turned out to be true.

I believe that the olive tree is native to Iran (former Persia). It was first domesticated there and spread sideways along the Mid-East's fertile crescent from whence it was subsequently diffused around the Mediterranean basin. So why not the wine grape as well?

Since the entire Mediterranean basin is on about the same range of latitudes as Iran, the hours of sunlight and solar heat, rainfall, cycle of seasons etc. would be very similar: facilitating the transfer of domestic plants and cultivators know-how along a broadly east-to-west axis.

Another observation: the fact that vine cultivation, wine making and consumption survived in former Persia for almost a millennia and one half until the Islamic revolution upheaval of 1979 put an end to it leads me to the impression that Shia Islam, unlike Sunni Islam, does not have a long history of being intolerant to the consumption of alcoholic beverages like wine. The blighting intolerance of the current regime that destroyed an ancient wine industry like that is something completely new.

Cyclamen persicum
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Re: Does Shiraz wine come from Iran ?

Post by Cyclamen persicum » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:37 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:10 pm


CP: I would not be surprised if it turned out to be true.

I believe that the olive tree is native to Iran (former Persia). It was first domesticated there and spread sideways along the Mid-East's fertile crescent from whence it was subsequently diffused around the Mediterranean basin. So why not the wine grape as well?

Since the entire Mediterranean basin is on about the same range of latitudes as Iran, the hours of sunlight and solar heat, rainfall, cycle of seasons etc. would be very similar: facilitating the transfer of domestic plants and cultivators know-how along a broadly east-to-west axis.

Another observation: the fact that vine cultivation, wine making and consumption survived in former Persia for almost a millennia and one half until the Islamic revolution upheaval of 1979 put an end to it leads me to the impression that Shia Islam, unlike Sunni Islam, does not have a long history of being intolerant to the consumption of alcoholic beverages like wine. The blighting intolerance of the current regime that destroyed an ancient wine industry like that is something completely new.

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"neverfail" .. a lot of fruits , vegetable, threes, flowers come from Iran

Best is goolg PERSICUM .. latin for Persian


I know of a lot of fruits coming from Persia .. Nectarine (nucipersica) , peach (Prunus persica) , etc .. also many flowers and vegetation etc


Roman empire, Byzantine, next to Persian empire, foguth each other for 100s of yrs .. the "Roman legionnaires", the soldiers, were in close contact with Persian empire .. The Roman legionnaires brought many things from Persia to Roman empire.

Also, Roman legionnaires adapted Persian religion, Mithraism, Roman religion became Mithraist

Roman emperor, Constantine, for political reason, to counter Persian influence in Roman empire, decided to
adapt the new phenomena of that time, Christianity .. all stayed the same, Birthday of Mitra became birthday of Christ etc .. goodle


Regarding Mullahs and Wine .. two holly cities in Iran, GHOM and MASHAD .. they have the highest consumption of alcohol per capita .. most Mullahs are heavy drinkers (best brand) .. Alcohol as abundant right now in Tehran as it is in L.A., and , same price.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Does Shiraz wine come from Iran ?

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:28 am

I first drank Australian Shiraz wines when I was younger, so I still think of it as "Australian", but I'd easily believe that the varietal originates in Persia.
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neverfail
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Re: Shiraz and Jerez.

Post by neverfail » Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:43 pm

Warm greetings Steve Foerster.

In response to your above post: yes, wine grapes of the Shiraz species are widely grown out here in our wine producing districts (which are now many and widespread). I have even tried to grow them myself. However, to my knowledge and understanding the original cuttings from which our Shiraz vineyards were progenated did not originate from Iran/Persia but from the Jerez district in the south of Spain:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerez_de_la_Frontera

Now, native Spanish speakers (in their phonetic alphabet) pronounce the letter "H" so that it sounds somewhat like an English "J": so in consequence a town in California with the name San Jose (originally named that by its former Hispanic occupants) which, were you to pronounce its name strictly according to English phonetics would come across as "San Josie" is of course pronounced as as "San Hoe-say" as any Californisa resident could not help but be aware of. So it follows that Jerez in Spain would be pronounced like "her-rays".

Between Shiraz (Persia) and Jerez (Spain) is only a slight difference in phonetic pronunciation.

How the progeny of Iran's Shiraz grape species ended up growing in the south of Spain is a historic mystery to be. Clear however that someone in the distant past (The Romans? The Moors?) must have introduced it along with the name the producing district in Spain subsequently adopted.

By the way SF: it is not just here in Australia that we grow this grape species. Other New World wine producing regions such as Chile and Argentina they also grow then. I have in the past sampled shiraz wines from both these wine exporting countries. A foregone conclusion their grapes originated from Spain as well.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Shiraz and Jerez.

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:48 pm

neverfail wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:43 pm
Warm greetings Steve Foerster.

In response to your above post: yes, wine grapes of the Shiraz species are widely grown out here in our wine producing districts (which are now many and widespread). I have even tried to grow them myself. However, to my knowledge and understanding the original cuttings from which our Shiraz vineyards were progenated did not originate from Iran/Persia but from the Jerez district in the south of Spain:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerez_de_la_Frontera

Now, native Spanish speakers (in their phonetic alphabet) pronounce the letter "H" so that it sounds somewhat like an English "J": so in consequence a town in California with the name San Jose (originally named that by its former Hispanic occupants) which, were you to pronounce its name strictly according to English phonetics would come across as "San Josie" is of course pronounced as as "San Hoe-say" as any Californisa resident could not help but be aware of. So it follows that Jerez in Spain would be pronounced like "her-rays".

Between Shiraz (Persia) and Jerez (Spain) is only a slight difference in phonetic pronunciation.

How the progeny of Iran's Shiraz grape species ended up growing in the south of Spain is a historic mystery to be. Clear however that someone in the distant past (The Romans? The Moors?) must have introduced it along with the name the producing district in Spain subsequently adopted.

By the way SF: it is not just here in Australia that we grow this grape species. Other New World wine producing regions such as Chile and Argentina they also grow then. I have in the past sampled shiraz wines from both these wine exporting countries. A foregone conclusion their grapes originated from Spain as well.
That makes sense also. And yes, since then I have drunk Shiraz from other regions. Viva España, then.
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neverfail
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Re: Shiraz and Jerez.

Post by neverfail » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:20 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:48 pm
neverfail wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:43 pm
Warm greetings Steve Foerster.

Now, native Spanish speakers (in their phonetic alphabet) pronounce the letter "H" so that it sounds somewhat like an English "J":
That makes sense also. And yes, since then I have drunk Shiraz from other regions. Viva España, then.
Oh sorry SF. Above should have read native Spanish speakers (in their phonetic alphabet) pronounce the letter "J" so that it sounds somewhat like an English "H": Sorry, my mistake!
.............................................................................................

I say "Viva España" also.

Another Spanish gift to Australia was their Merino sheep species. When cross-bred into the (designer- mongrel) Australian Merino-Cross by one of our early pioneering rancher-settlers; the fine fleece from this sheep became this country's chief export and the driver of our economic progress for the next century and one half.

Cyclamen persicum
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Re: Shiraz and Jerez.

Post by Cyclamen persicum » Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:06 pm

neverfail wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:43 pm
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Warm greetings Steve Foerster.

In response to your above post: yes, wine grapes of the Shiraz species are widely grown out here in our wine producing districts (which are now many and widespread). I have even tried to grow them myself. However, to my knowledge and understanding the original cuttings from which our Shiraz vineyards were progenated did not originate from Iran/Persia but from the Jerez district in the south of Spain:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerez_de_la_Frontera

Now, native Spanish speakers (in their phonetic alphabet) pronounce the letter "H" so that it sounds somewhat like an English "J": so in consequence a town in California with the name San Jose (originally named that by its former Hispanic occupants) which, were you to pronounce its name strictly according to English phonetics would come across as "San Josie" is of course pronounced as as "San Hoe-say" as any Californisa resident could not help but be aware of. So it follows that Jerez in Spain would be pronounced like "her-rays".

Between Shiraz (Persia) and Jerez (Spain) is only a slight difference in phonetic pronunciation.

How the progeny of Iran's Shiraz grape species ended up growing in the south of Spain is a historic mystery to be. Clear however that someone in the distant past (The Romans? The Moors?) must have introduced it along with the name the producing district in Spain subsequently adopted.

By the way SF: it is not just here in Australia that we grow this grape species. Other New World wine producing regions such as Chile and Argentina they also grow then. I have in the past sampled shiraz wines from both these wine exporting countries. A foregone conclusion their grapes originated from Spain as well.

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neverfail , all Gardens of Andalusia, Alhambra & Cordoba were done by Persian artisans



Persian Gardens


Persian gardens or Iranian gardens (Persian باغ ایرانی) has influenced the design of gardens from Andalusia to India and beyond.

The gardens of the Alhambra show the influence of Persian garden philosophy and style in a Moorish palace scale, from the era of Al-Andalus in Spain. The Humayun's Tomb and Taj Mahal have some of the largest Persian gardens in the world, from the era of the Mughal Empire in India.

Many Persian fruits and herbs were introduced to Andalusia


High probability Shiraz grape too found it's way to Spain at that time.

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neverfail
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Re: Does Shiraz wine come from Iran ?

Post by neverfail » Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:50 pm

Thanks CP. That makes a lot of sense.

By the way, are you Persian yourself?

Cyclamen persicum
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Re: Does Shiraz wine come from Iran ?

Post by Cyclamen persicum » Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:08 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:50 pm
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Thanks CP. That makes a lot of sense.

By the way, are you Persian yourself ?


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Yes


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