The Freeing of Europe

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Sertorio
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The Freeing of Europe

Post by Sertorio » Sat May 12, 2018 8:54 am

US, EU on Verge of Breakup as Macron and Merkel Vow to Counter Anti-Iran Move
https://sputniknews.com/europe/20180512 ... iran-deal/

The US president has made several recent moves that negatively affect the economies of European countries, despite constant pleas by the Europeans to avoid such moves. Now, prominent EU leaders are raising the question of greater European independence from the US.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Macron met in Aachen to discuss pertinent European issues, including the threat to its economy posed by the recent actions of Washington. Both have spoken in favor of making Europe stronger and less dependent on the US, on which they believe they can no longer rely.

If Foreign Powers Decide Our Diplomacy, We Are No Longer Sovereign — Paris

The French president expressed his opinion that no other country should have power over a state's sovereign matters.

"If we accept that other major powers, including allies […] put themselves in a situation to decide our diplomacy, security for us, and sometimes even make us run the worst risks, then we are no more sovereign and we cannot be more credible to public opinion," Macron said.

As if US threats to impose tariffs on steel and aluminum from Europe to improve the trade balance were not enough, the US has announced its withdrawal from the JCPOA (also known as the Iran deal). This means not that only will the US impose sanctions against Iran, but it will also impose them against companies (for example European ones), that have business ties with the Islamic Republic.

A number of European companies have invested millions in Iran and now they stand before a tough choice — lose their investments or be punished by the US. French giants like Airbus, Total, Renault and Peugeot are among those that have invested much after the Iranian market was opened in 2015. The French foreign minister has slammed Washington for its decision to impose sanctions against not only Iran, but also against those that deal with Iran.

"We feel that the extraterritoriality of their sanction measures is unacceptable, [and will] do everything to protect the interests of their companies," he told Le Parisien newspaper.

He added that Europe must not pay for the US withdrawal from the Iran deal and insisted that Washington should negotiate with the EU on possible sanctions against its companies.

France's Finance Minister Bruno Le Maire sounded in tune with the foreign minister's statements.

"Do we accept extraterritorial sanctions? The answer is no. Do we accept that the United States is the economic gendarme of the planet? The answer is no," Le Maire said.

He also stressed the need for European countries to work on countermeasures and that he is going to propose a sanctions-blocking initiative to the European commission.

"We have to work among ourselves in Europe to defend our economic sovereignty. At the end of May I will meet with the British and German finance ministers and the three of us will look at what we can do," Le Maire said.

The French finance minister also urged US Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin to come up with exemptions or delays for French companies, but had little hopes that his words would have any effect.

Europe Must Take its Fate into its Own Hands — Berlin

German Chancellor Angela Merkel is confident that instead of relying on the US, the EU must work out its own policy, including in the security sphere.

"It is no longer such that the United States simply protects us, but Europe must take its destiny in its own hands, that's the task of the future," she said.

She noted, however, that European foreign policy is still in its "infancy" and requires a lot of upgrading, especially considering the fact that the nature of conflicts has drastically changed since the Cold War.

US Has "Lost Its Vigor"

Both the German chancellor and the French president have expressed their adherence to the Iran deal, despite the US decision to withdraw from it. In order to cement their vows, they called the Iranian president and assured him that they remained committed to the deal and announced their intention to keep it.

President of the European Commission Jean-Claude Juncker on his part suggested that Europe must replace the US as a global leader, since Washington "has lost its vigor."

High Representative of the EU for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy Federica Mogherini stressed the fact that the European Union will act considering its own interests and urged other signatories of the JCPOA to uphold the deal.

US President Donald Trump announced on May 8 that the US was withdrawing from the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA; also known as the Iran nuclear deal), an international agreement reached in 2015 by Iran, the United States, Russia, France, China, the United Kingdom, Germany and the EU. The deal was designed to prevent Iran from acquiring its own nuclear weapons and to ensure the peaceful nature of its nuclear program.

Trump has consistently been a harsh critic of the Iran deal, calling it "the worst" and "defective at its core." He demanded to "fix" it, threatening otherwise to withdraw the US from the deal. French President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Angela Merkel attempted to convince Trump to stick with the deal, but these efforts ultimately failed.

Iranian officials warned the US against the move, claiming the deal won't work without it, despite EU efforts. Russia has expressed its regret about the US decision to abandon the JCPOA and promised that it will remain committed to the Iran deal.
It seems that Europe is taking the first steps to free itself from servitude to the US. This has always been my position, and I can only approve of such steps. Europe must stand on its own and must take its place among the countries wanting a peaceful world and respect for human rights. The US is not one of those peace loving countries and must be isolated and stopped from harming the rest of us.

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cassowary
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Re: The Freeing of Europe

Post by cassowary » Sat May 12, 2018 10:04 am

More Rubbish from Sputnik

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Sertorio
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Re: The Freeing of Europe

Post by Sertorio » Sat May 12, 2018 10:10 am

cassowary wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:04 am
More Rubbish from Sputnik
Sputnik just reports what some French and German ministers are saying. Why is such reporting rubbish? Can you prove that those statements were never made?...

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Doc
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Re: The Freeing of Europe

Post by Doc » Sat May 12, 2018 10:38 am

Europe will pay for the Iran deal. Literally. The Iranians are already saying since the US is no longer paying them someone from Europe is going to have to step up and pay. I am sure Marcon and Merkel can just place more austerity measures on Southern Europe to pay for it.
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” … George Orwell

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Sertorio
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Re: The Freeing of Europe

Post by Sertorio » Sat May 12, 2018 11:25 am

Doc wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:38 am
Europe will pay for the Iran deal. Literally. The Iranians are already saying since the US is no longer paying them someone from Europe is going to have to step up and pay. I am sure Marcon and Merkel can just place more austerity measures on Southern Europe to pay for it.
I don't understand your argument. The US were not supposed to pay anything on account of the nuclear treaty with Iran, and neither were the European countries. The issue is that of lifting the sanctions against Iran. Such lifting will not cost Europe anything, it will benefit them because of the opportunities to export to Iran...

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Alexis
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Pondering European options in response to US economic aggression

Post by Alexis » Sat May 12, 2018 2:31 pm

Doc wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:38 am
Europe will pay for the Iran deal. Literally. The Iranians are already saying since the US is no longer paying them someone from Europe is going to have to step up and pay. I am sure Marcon and Merkel can just place more austerity measures on Southern Europe to pay for it.
Actually, what the Iranians are asking is for Europeans to continue applying the agreement, which means continuing to trade with them. No payment is involved, save Iranian payment for European products and European payment for Iranian energy.

On the other hand, the US are demanding all foreign companies, including European ones, to stop trading with Iran just as the US will stop. This, on penalty of financial sanctions based on US extra-territorial legislation, which is US laws meant to order behaviour by non-Americans outside of US territory.

What is discussed now in Europe is how to protect European companies from US extra-territorial legislation so that they can develop their business with Iran, both to protect European economic interests targeted by America and to ensure survival of agreement with Iran, without which a large scale war in the Middle East is probable, that would also jeopardize European interests (oil price, for one thing).

How to protect European companies isn't perfectly clear at this point. Several options are studied. Some would need elements of a trade war with the US, some might not need so.

What is clear is that European leaders perceive the US decision as in part an economic aggression on Europe. Correctly so.

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armchair_pundit
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Re: Pondering European options in response to US economic aggression

Post by armchair_pundit » Sat May 12, 2018 3:47 pm

Alexis wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 2:31 pm
Doc wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:38 am
Europe will pay for the Iran deal. Literally. The Iranians are already saying since the US is no longer paying them someone from Europe is going to have to step up and pay. I am sure Marcon and Merkel can just place more austerity measures on Southern Europe to pay for it.
Actually, what the Iranians are asking is for Europeans to continue applying the agreement, which means continuing to trade with them. No payment is involved, save Iranian payment for European products and European payment for Iranian energy.

On the other hand, the US are demanding all foreign companies, including European ones, to stop trading with Iran just as the US will stop. This, on penalty of financial sanctions based on US extra-territorial legislation, which is US laws meant to order behaviour by non-Americans outside of US territory.

What is discussed now in Europe is how to protect European companies from US extra-territorial legislation so that they can develop their business with Iran, both to protect European economic interests targeted by America and to ensure survival of agreement with Iran, without which a large scale war in the Middle East is probable, that would also jeopardize European interests (oil price, for one thing).

How to protect European companies isn't perfectly clear at this point. Several options are studied. Some would need elements of a trade war with the US, some might not need so.

What is clear is that European leaders perceive the US decision as in part an economic aggression on Europe. Correctly so.
Yes and no. Not an aggression, but simplifying, a national policy of the right to refuse or tax business with foreign corporations/entities that as we see it are aiding and abetting the nuclear arming of Iran.

I don't think anyone here besides Sertorio is for Iran having nuclear weapons, so we are confused as why our European fiends, who are already within Iran's missiles ranges, are?

In your post, you basically concede the fear of war with Iran, if the agreement is scuttled and sanctions harshly imposed. Given that now, what concessions will Europe give when Iran has nuclear tipped missiles and terrorist networks capable of nuclear car bombs deliverable to any city in the world?

Whether or not the sanctions will work is a thread worthy of its own, but that and a good sabotage program from the Mossad et al could certainly slow the process if not eventually halt it. Some real good lessons to be learned in the history of and unfolding story in the DPRK.

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Sertorio
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Re: Pondering European options in response to US economic aggression

Post by Sertorio » Sat May 12, 2018 5:48 pm

armchair_pundit wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 3:47 pm
Alexis wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 2:31 pm
Doc wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:38 am
Europe will pay for the Iran deal. Literally. The Iranians are already saying since the US is no longer paying them someone from Europe is going to have to step up and pay. I am sure Marcon and Merkel can just place more austerity measures on Southern Europe to pay for it.
Actually, what the Iranians are asking is for Europeans to continue applying the agreement, which means continuing to trade with them. No payment is involved, save Iranian payment for European products and European payment for Iranian energy.

On the other hand, the US are demanding all foreign companies, including European ones, to stop trading with Iran just as the US will stop. This, on penalty of financial sanctions based on US extra-territorial legislation, which is US laws meant to order behaviour by non-Americans outside of US territory.

What is discussed now in Europe is how to protect European companies from US extra-territorial legislation so that they can develop their business with Iran, both to protect European economic interests targeted by America and to ensure survival of agreement with Iran, without which a large scale war in the Middle East is probable, that would also jeopardize European interests (oil price, for one thing).

How to protect European companies isn't perfectly clear at this point. Several options are studied. Some would need elements of a trade war with the US, some might not need so.

What is clear is that European leaders perceive the US decision as in part an economic aggression on Europe. Correctly so.
Yes and no. Not an aggression, but simplifying, a national policy of the right to refuse or tax business with foreign corporations/entities that as we see it are aiding and abetting the nuclear arming of Iran.

I don't think anyone here besides Sertorio is for Iran having nuclear weapons, so we are confused as why our European fiends, who are already within Iran's missiles ranges, are?

In your post, you basically concede the fear of war with Iran, if the agreement is scuttled and sanctions harshly imposed. Given that now, what concessions will Europe give when Iran has nuclear tipped missiles and terrorist networks capable of nuclear car bombs deliverable to any city in the world?

Whether or not the sanctions will work is a thread worthy of its own, but that and a good sabotage program from the Mossad et al could certainly slow the process if not eventually halt it. Some real good lessons to be learned in the history of and unfolding story in the DPRK.
You are either very confused or very keen to accept the crudest propaganda... The nuclear deal with Iran is meant to keep Iran from building nuclear weapons and becoming free of economic sanctions. European countries, by sticking to the treaty, ensure that Iran will not have nuclear weapons anytime in the near future. By scrapping the deal, the US is making sure Iran will soon have those weapons, just as it happened with North Korea. European countries have not only the right to maintain the deal with Iran, but also the right to neutralize as much as possible any US sanctions against Iran. By going ahead with a most stupid policy, the US not only is fostering what it says it wants to prevent, but it is also making sure that Europe will turn its back on NATO and on the alliance with the US. You cannot get any more stupid than this...

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armchair_pundit
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Re: The Freeing of Europe

Post by armchair_pundit » Sun May 13, 2018 12:49 am

stupid is as stupid does, they say.

Consider me stupid for not believing Iran will stop what it has started, no matter what they say, or play 3 card monte with "inspections". i guess then consider me double stupid for considering that Iran has at least a few untested nuclear weapons now, either from their own efforts, or from purchasing/stealing them.

Perhaps you are the one sucking on the propaganda hose of unrequited belief in the benevolence of the Iranian theocracy, to be diplomatic.

By the way, resorting to ad hominems reflects poorly on any point you may be trying to make.

BTW, they were many deals with the DPRK, but, well, you know those benevolent dictatorships rarely, if ever actually keep a deal they make...

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Alexis
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Re: Pondering European options in response to US economic aggression

Post by Alexis » Sun May 13, 2018 1:46 am

armchair_pundit wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 3:47 pm
Yes and no. Not an aggression, but simplifying, a national policy of the right to refuse or tax business with foreign corporations/entities that as we see it are aiding and abetting the nuclear arming of Iran.
Which is an extra-territorial legislation, the USA trying to impose their laws outside of their national territory.

That is seen here in Europe as illegitimate. The question is whether to accept it, bowing to US force as was done until now, or to start a showdown against the US.

I don't think anyone here besides Sertorio is for Iran having nuclear weapons, so we are confused as why our European fiends, who are already within Iran's missiles ranges, are?
There is wide consensus in Europe against Iran having nuclear weapons. Less on the fact itself - Europeans know Teheran is a rational actor and are largely free of the peculiar US deep-seated anti-Iranian obsession - than on the risk further nuclear proliferation would be triggered. Especially in Saudi Arabia, which is not as rational nor as stable as Iran is. You may remember that it was not Iranians taking down the WTC on 9/11.

That being said, acting against nuclear proliferation is precisely what the Iran agreement was about, triggering Iranian nuclear weapons is precisely what US withdrawal from the agreement will probably achieve, save (maybe!) if Europeans succeed in maintaining JCPOA alive, which would need maintaining trade with Iran, which would need countering US extra-territorial legislation.

The crux of the matter is: choosing between showdown against the US on trade on the one hand, bowing to US illegitimate demands on the other hand.

I think it's Germany that will make that choice, because as far as France is concerned the choice is already clear. However, we need Germany for that trade showdown. What Germans will do is now unclear. What is for sure is that they are deeply troubled, because they see really good reasonw to counter US policies, while that would go against all their habits.

In your post, you basically concede the fear of war with Iran, if the agreement is scuttled and sanctions harshly imposed.
War is probable in that case, yes, because Rouhani will be weakened, Iran may well also withdraw from the agreement and start nuclear production, hence US/Israeli attack and a large scale war.

It's true that no European will die in that war. In 2003, when the US attacked Iraq, several European countries were fooled into following America, such as Britain or Italy. When the US attack Iran, nobody will be fooled, Europeans are in agreement on that issue.

US soldiers, Israelis and Saudis, and of course a bunch of Iranians will do the dying. Not us. So we could choose to not give a damn. And that may be what we will do.

On the other hand, a new large scale war in the Middle East may send oil price skyrocketing, which would be very detrimental to our economic interests. New waves of illegal immigrants might be possible too given the added disorder. Therefore just getting out of the US/Israeli/Saudi move towards war would have a price too.

Given that now, what concessions will Europe give when Iran has nuclear tipped missiles and terrorist networks capable of nuclear car bombs deliverable to any city in the world?
None. We don't give any "concession" to Russia nor China, which have had such weapons for decades. Nor do we plan to give concessions to North Korea when it completes operational nuclear-tipped ICBMs.

Whether or not the sanctions will work is a thread worthy of its own, but that and a good sabotage program from the Mossad et al could certainly slow the process if not eventually halt it.
Resuming sanctions - which Iran will feel only if Europe refuses the showdown against the US - will probably work if getting Iran to actually build nuclear weapons is the objective.

"Mossad" is the name of the Israeli intelligence service. It's not the name of the Almighty. There are limits to what it can accomplish.

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