Trump is no dangerous udiot.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Trump is no dangerous udiot.

Post by SteveFoerster » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:39 am

cassowary wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:05 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:04 pm
The U.S. has always been a trading nation. The disastrous effects of the Smoot-Hawley Tariff in 1930 and the decade the followed showed that the U.S. is as dependent on international trade as anyone, and that's only increased in the meantime.

But there's an enormous difference between frigates sailing around to ensure sea lanes are open, and maintaining military bases in 70 countries around the world, interfering in other countries in ways that would rightfully brand any other country as a rogue state.
Steve,

You fail to understand that many countries welcome the US presence. They view the US as a policeman. The bases are with the consent of the hosts. When the US presence is no longer needed, they can be sent home. Eg the Philippines told the US to leave and they left.
Agreed, but that's orthogonal to my point, which is that these bases have nothing to do with the well being of the actual everyday Americans who fund them.

Sertorio isn't wrong about U.S. interventionism, he's just so blinded by his anti-American feelings that he's willing to support replacement of them by alternatives like the Russians or Chinese even though they would be even worse.
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cassowary
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Re: Trump is no dangerous udiot.

Post by cassowary » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:30 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:39 am
cassowary wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:05 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:04 pm
The U.S. has always been a trading nation. The disastrous effects of the Smoot-Hawley Tariff in 1930 and the decade the followed showed that the U.S. is as dependent on international trade as anyone, and that's only increased in the meantime.

But there's an enormous difference between frigates sailing around to ensure sea lanes are open, and maintaining military bases in 70 countries around the world, interfering in other countries in ways that would rightfully brand any other country as a rogue state.
Steve,

You fail to understand that many countries welcome the US presence. They view the US as a policeman. The bases are with the consent of the hosts. When the US presence is no longer needed, they can be sent home. Eg the Philippines told the US to leave and they left.
Agreed, but that's orthogonal to my point, which is that these bases have nothing to do with the well being of the actual everyday Americans who fund them.

Sertorio isn't wrong about U.S. interventionism, he's just so blinded by his anti-American feelings that he's willing to support replacement of them by alternatives like the Russians or Chinese even though they would be even worse.
What you are really saying is that the US should not spend taxpayers' money to protect Europe, South Korea, Japan and elsewhere. Yours is the view of an isolationist. It is also why I love the US, which I view as a force for good.

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Sertorio
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Re: Trump is no dangerous udiot.

Post by Sertorio » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:30 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:39 am

Sertorio isn't wrong about U.S. interventionism, he's just so blinded by his anti-American feelings that he's willing to support replacement of them by alternatives like the Russians or Chinese even though they would be even worse.
I don't see Russia or China as replacements for US imperialism. I see them as powers which will protect their interests without trying to dominate all other countries. And I see them - mostly Russia - as Europe's partners.

neverfail
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Re: Trump is no dangerous udiot.

Post by neverfail » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:26 am

US imperialism?

The Yanks moved into Europe only because the Europeans were improvident enough to turn their continent into the seat of two horrible World wars. A continent crying out for outside intervention to discipline its self-destructive urge towards solving problems via military aggression.

Since they have, Europe has become uncharacteristically peaceful: given its many previous centuries history of international and domestic conflict.

Wake up Sertorio; recognize and acknowledge on which side Europe's bread is buttered. :D

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Sertorio
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Re: Trump is no dangerous udiot.

Post by Sertorio » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:46 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:26 am
US imperialism?

The Yanks moved into Europe only because the Europeans were improvident enough to turn their continent into the seat of two horrible World wars. A continent crying out for outside intervention to discipline its self-destructive urge towards solving problems via military aggression.

Since they have, Europe has become uncharacteristically peaceful: given its many previous centuries history of international and domestic conflict.

Wake up Sertorio; recognize and acknowledge on which side Europe's bread is buttered. :D
Do you actually believe that the development of peaceful relations in Europe was due to the American presence? Peace came back to Europe when major French and German statesmen realized that their two countries must learn to live in peace. People like De Gaulle and Adenauer, not any second rate American politician. And today it is American obsessions with Russia and conflicts in the ME that are threatening peace in Europe. We are forced to take an anti-Russia stance to protect American interests and strategies, and are the victims of a flood of ME refugees fleeing from American sustained wars in the ME. We must free ourselves from US imperial delusions in order to be able to build a true European union, capable of cooperating with Russia.

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cassowary
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Re: Trump is no dangerous udiot.

Post by cassowary » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:13 am

Oh Sertorio, you are so wrong. Why is it so many leftists are on the side of dictators?. In the old days, many leftists loved Stalin. Today, people like you love Putin the prisoner.

The US remains in Europe with the approval of democratically elected governments to protect it from your favorite dictator Putin.

If you are right, why then do the Europeans not ask the US to leave?

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Sertorio
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Re: Trump is no dangerous udiot.

Post by Sertorio » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:17 am

cassowary wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:13 am
Oh Sertorio, you are so wrong. Why is it so many leftists are on the side of dictators?. In the old days, many leftists loved Stalin. Today, people like you love Putin the prisoner.

The US remains in Europe with the approval of democratically elected governments to protect it from your favorite dictator Putin.

If you are right, why then do the Europeans not ask the US to leave?
We will...

neverfail
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Re: Trump is no dangerous udiot.

Post by neverfail » Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:36 am

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:46 am

Do you actually believe that the development of peaceful relations in Europe was due to the American presence?
The unprecedented era of peace that Europe has enjoyed since 1945 after untold centuries of strife tells me that, left to themselves, the European nations were, probably still are, incapable of maintaining the peace among themselves.

As for Adenauer and De Gaulle and their peace pact: had it not been for the American led 1944 Anglo-American invasion of Normandy and the subsequent liberation of western Europe from the Nazi grip: would either Adenauer or De Gaulle ever have subsequently had the opportunity to emerge as political leaders of their respective (by then free) countries; then latterly move on to do their reconciliation thing?

Europe was able to settle down into the current era of peaceful collaboration specifically because of the shelter provided by the pax Americana.

(p.s. If the Americans had this alleged ambition to conquer and rule the world, they could - as Ronald reagan once succinctly pointed out - have done it between 1945 and 1949 when the USA was the only country on Earth to possess the atomic bomb. Wake up, Sertorio!).

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Sertorio
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Re: Trump is no dangerous udiot.

Post by Sertorio » Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:10 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:36 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:46 am

Do you actually believe that the development of peaceful relations in Europe was due to the American presence?
The unprecedented era of peace that Europe has enjoyed since 1945 after untold centuries of strife tells me that, left to themselves, the European nations were, probably still are, incapable of maintaining the peace among themselves.

As for Adenauer and De Gaulle and their peace pact: had it not been for the American led 1944 Anglo-American invasion of Normandy and the subsequent liberation of western Europe from the Nazi grip: would either Adenauer or De Gaulle ever have subsequently had the opportunity to emerge as political leaders of their respective (by then free) countries; then latterly move on to do their reconciliation thing?

Europe was able to settle down into the current era of peaceful collaboration specifically because of the shelter provided by the pax Americana.

(p.s. If the Americans had this alleged ambition to conquer and rule the world, they could - as Ronald reagan once succinctly pointed out - have done it between 1945 and 1949 when the USA was the only country on Earth to possess the atomic bomb. Wake up, Sertorio!).
Your belief in American selflessness is touching... But has nothing to do with the reality. Did the US help end the war in Europe? Yes, it did. And so did the Soviet Union. But ever since 1945 both powers tried to manipulate Europe for their own benefit, not ours. With the end of the Soviet Union we started to free ourselves, but we still need to get rid of the US and of the oligarchy which dominates it, in order to be completely free. Personaly I am very tired of having to put the American interests first. The Ukrainian situation, the tension in the Balkans, the whole ME mess, the Lybian conflict only happened to serve the illegitimate interests of the US. And we, in Europe, have been dragged into those conflicts against our most basic interests. In the end we will free ourselves, but meanwhile we have jeopardized the unity of Europe, because some European governments insist on being the vassals of the US.

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cassowary
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Re: Trump is no dangerous udiot.

Post by cassowary » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:49 am

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:10 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:36 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:46 am

Do you actually believe that the development of peaceful relations in Europe was due to the American presence?
The unprecedented era of peace that Europe has enjoyed since 1945 after untold centuries of strife tells me that, left to themselves, the European nations were, probably still are, incapable of maintaining the peace among themselves.

As for Adenauer and De Gaulle and their peace pact: had it not been for the American led 1944 Anglo-American invasion of Normandy and the subsequent liberation of western Europe from the Nazi grip: would either Adenauer or De Gaulle ever have subsequently had the opportunity to emerge as political leaders of their respective (by then free) countries; then latterly move on to do their reconciliation thing?

Europe was able to settle down into the current era of peaceful collaboration specifically because of the shelter provided by the pax Americana.

(p.s. If the Americans had this alleged ambition to conquer and rule the world, they could - as Ronald reagan once succinctly pointed out - have done it between 1945 and 1949 when the USA was the only country on Earth to possess the atomic bomb. Wake up, Sertorio!).
Your belief in American selflessness is touching... But has nothing to do with the reality. Did the US help end the war in Europe? Yes, it did. And so did the Soviet Union. But ever since 1945 both powers tried to manipulate Europe for their own benefit, not ours. With the end of the Soviet Union we started to free ourselves, but we still need to get rid of the US and of the oligarchy which dominates it, in order to be completely free. Personaly I am very tired of having to put the American interests first. The Ukrainian situation, the tension in the Balkans, the whole ME mess, the Lybian conflict only happened to serve the illegitimate interests of the US. And we, in Europe, have been dragged into those conflicts against our most basic interests. In the end we will free ourselves, but meanwhile we have jeopardized the unity of Europe, because some European governments insist on being the vassals of the US.
What a load of rubbish, Sertotio. If Europe wants to be free of the Americans, all they have to do,is ask, like the Philippines did. The truth is that Europe still wants US protection against Putin, the poisoner.

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